Uncaused choices?

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:47 pm

roblaine wrote:
If the Holy Spirit can grant divine revelation to each individual, why does God deem it fit to permit this disagreement? Is he the God of confusion?
Obviously not. Man, though saved and regenerated is not perfect and open to mistakes. I certainly would not put the blame on the Holy Spirit. If I'm mistaken it is only my fault.

Answer the first question, and I'll continue. If the Holy Spirit can grant divine revelation to each individual, why does God deem it fit to permit this disagreement?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:00 am

To God alone be the glory. Truly, I am but a worm.
If that makes me a false Pharisee then so be it. I could only wish to be as pious as those hell deserving Pharisees!

Mark

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:14 am

Quote:
Pure Semi-Pelagianism bordering upon Pelagianism.

Way to go, Tartan! Place people in a Heresy Box, put a label on it, and thank God that you are not as one of them, but that you are one of the elect and hold the faith of Augustinian-Calvinistic Orthodoxy.

You are a heretic! Do you want me to lie?

Listen. Read what it was I was responding to in your comments!

And just for clarity, Arminius and Wesley, who were no friends of Calvinism, taught total depravity/inability.

What they rejected was the imputation by one man to all men, as in the guilt of Adam to all men.
These guys did not reject Total depravity/inability, but rather held to a high view about prevenient grace, which I have posted links here to in the past, which no one bothers to read it seems.

Mark

Post by **_roblaine** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:24 am

Answer the first question, and I'll continue. If the Holy Spirit can grant divine revelation to each individual, why does God deem it fit to permit this disagreement?

I couldn't say for sure, but perhaps God wants to see how His children act and treat each other in the face of such differences.

Robin

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:37 am

Unbelievers are called "slaves of sin" and can someone be a slave yet have a free will simultaneouly?
Yes a slave can choose to flee , yes he can choose to resist temptation but without God will he succeed?
Did'nt Jesus say "without me you can do nothing?" Another words slaves can want to do this and that but because they are slaves even knowing and wanting to do right will not work without God, at least according to Jesus.
We have a will and we do make choices but where is free will?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:48 pm

There is no "libertarian free will".

You can always side with the Catholics, which of course is exactly what Arminianism does.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

And while we are at it. A heap of good stuff here for Arminians to ponder, interact with etc.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3 ... futed.html

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:57 pm

There is no "libertarian free will".

True but there is human will and although not free we still are accountable for our choices because God does not make us sin.
We don't need much help for that.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:02 am

Steve 7150:

Unbelievers are called "slaves of sin" and can someone be a slave yet have a free will simultaneouly?

YES! Even a physical slave can choose to disobey his master.

A slave to sin, has a propensity to sin. Through much practice, he may have even developed a character with a very strong tendency to sin continually. Yet on any given occasion, he has the ability to refrain from committing some particular sinful act. I am sure we are all aware of such cases.

I knew an alcoholic who was definitely addicted to alcohol, but who sometimes refused to drink on an occasion when alchoholic beverages were offered. If she had the free will to do it on one occasion, she also had the free will to do it on the next occasion, and the next ...

It is just that an alcoholic is unlikely to be able to succeed in quitting without outside help. However, I've known alcoholics who have done so!

The fact that such libertarian free will exists in no way negates the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ which delivers us from sin and enables us to work righteousness.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:27 pm

I knew an alcoholic who was definitely addicted to alcohol, but who sometimes refused to drink on an occasion when alchoholic beverages were offered. If she had the free will to do it on one occasion, she also had the free will to do it on the next occasion, and the next ...

Reality says otherwise because free will would allow the drug or alcohol addict to just "say no" and walk away from their addiction forever.
But it does'nt work that way because the nature of an addiction is that you do not have a free will, for if you did you would'nt be addicted. Addiction is a form of slavery, slaves do not have free will. Anyone can make a choice as computers make choices but they do not have free will and neither do addicts.
Refusing a drink on occassion is not an example of overcoming an addiction.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:00 am

Reality says otherwise because free will would allow the drug or alcohol addict to just "say no" and walk away from their addiction forever.

Some of them do!

As I stated in the post you have already read:

It is just that an alcoholic is unlikely to be able to succeed in quitting without outside help. However, I've known alcoholics who have done so!