Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by Allyn » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:47 am

Sean said
I guess I'm just wondering what a full preterist thinks is going to happen here on earth if there is not going to be a restoration of all things (physical). Apparently you do see the word coming under the Lordship of Jesus then?
I see the world without end and just as in times before there will be revivals and war. I can see society falling back into a simplier way of life because of certain influences upon the structure of society. I see the Gospel of Christ going on and on forever.

I made a casual statement in my first ever post or two to this new forum and it was that I could not agree with the preterist with a calvinist point of view. This disagreement is precisely because I see the world without end while the reformed preterist (if I'm using that term correctly) sees a certain predestined number of saved individuals therefore a time when the Gospel is no longer doing its work. I think this is contrary to teaching.

I was in an email conversation with Walt Hibbard a few weeks ago and he is a calvinist. His response to me fell short of good reasoning, but here is what he told me:
I take a little bit different view on election and predestination from a preterist viewpoint than what your paragraph below suggests. Because the world is never going to end, and both the everlasting Gospel and the everlasting Covenant will continue during all this time, I don't see that this prevents God from having chosen a people for His Name from before the foundation of the world. He saw the whole picture,the beginning and all that it includes, and for reasons that He has not disclosed, chose from out of that vast multitude of humanity a select but infinite number of people to be His own. I don't think God views time in exactly the way that we do and hence there would not appear to me to be any conflict in this whole scenario. This is how I view it anyway. I understand all of this from the perspective of Reformed theology which of course should not be greatly modified in many respects by taking a preterist view. Maybe the problem is the idea of God chosing a definite number which would seem to go beyond the definite to the indefinite. But again this objection would not seem to present a problem to an infinitely sovereign God.

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by RickC » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:54 am

Allyn,

Thanks for your reply, but you didn't directly answer my questions. You seem interested in elaborating on full-preterism and interpreting the verses you think supports it. Since Sean asked you to explain your viewpoint(s); I'll recommend N.T. Wright one last time, and let you guys finish out your discussion.

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by Sower » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:31 pm

Hello to all,

I am new to the forum and happy to be here! :D I enjoy the respect and gracious spirit shown toward each other and look forward to learning and sharing here.

I've followed with great interest the excellent questions and answers. This being my first post and all I hope it's alright to say it seems to me that Allyn is steadfastly addressing all the questions with reasoning from the scripture that can be searched out as to whether those things be so, which should be done as the noble bereans did in Thessalonica when Paul and Silas reasoned with them out of the scripture (Acts 17:1-11).

Blessings to all,

Lady Sower~

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by Allyn » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:21 pm

Quoting Rick
I see you and Sean have dialog going. I may join in on points raised soon. For now....
I found some notes I used on an FBFF thread on Thessalonians and rearranged them for this post.

The Thessalonican Letters do not support full-preterism, imo. I believe they disprove it.

I've repeated certain texts in a "summary" of Paul's 1 & 2 Thessalonians teaching below.
All texts from NIV.
(1 Thess 2:14, 15)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Notice that God's wrath had come in the present tense upon the persecutors of the Thessalonian Christians. But was this their final judgment? No, though they had already been judged as the enemies of God.

Now a section from 2 Thessalonians for context. Note how the very same persecutors Paul mentioned in his first letter had a future judgment and destruction (in bold for emphasis).

(2 Th 1)
3We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. 4Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

A Summary of Paul's Eschatology Teaching in the Thessalonian Letters, (bold for emphasis)
(2 Th 2:1a)
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....

(1Th 4)
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words (1 Th 4:16-18).

(1 Th 5)
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (2 Th 2:3).
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Th 1:6).
on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed (2 Th1:10a)---{the dead in Christ will rise first}---17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16b, 17)---This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you (2 Th 1:10).
11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing (1 Th 5:11)

At the Day of the Lord/rapture, the dead in Christ will be raised. Living believers will meet them and the Lord in the air. Then Jesus will be marveled at by all who have (ever) believed, not just the Thessalonian Christians. Then he will punish with retribution those who deserve it including the Thessalonian Jews Paul wrote about.

The Thessalonian letters teach one future Day of the Lord/rapture/final judgment: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...the dead in Christ will rise first...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...[when Jesus will be] marveled at and glorified among all those who have believed...[when] God "will pay back trouble to those who trouble you."

Hi Rick,

Does it seem like to you that I am avoiding your questions. I am not and in fact I thought my response to you would show the answers to your questions but I will give it another try. Sorry for the confusion.
Questions for Allyn

Have these events happened?
Yes
When did the Thessalonian believers receive comfort and get relief in the face to face physical presence of Christ?
When He came with His angels
When were they raptured, both the living and dead?
At that same coming with His angels
When did the persecutors in Thessalonica get punished, eternally destroyed, and "shut out from his {Christ's} presence" forever?
God's wrath was certainly upon those persecutors. They truly did receive it in fulness when Jesus came in His parousia. Some times judgement of wrath does not mean an immediate action observable by us humans but with God ist is a done thing.

If they died before the parousia then their eternal judgement came then but if they were alive at the Parousia then it came after their death whenever that happened.
Did Jesus appear with his angels in flaming fire over Thessalonica?
(I looked and haven't been able to find out how much---or even if?---the Jews there were affected by 70AD).
I don't know since we are only told that He would do it.

Has every believer of all time marveled the actual {physical} Lord Jesus Christ himself?
(Paul said this is going to happen---at the very same time Christ judges and destroys God's enemies).
Did Paul say "every believer of all time" or was he speaking of all from the beginning of time up to the 2nd coming?
On what date did all believers of all time glorify Christ, seeing him literally and physically?
How can people who aren't yet Christians do that?
(Remember, Paul describes this as a one time event)....
This was an event promised to the first century believers and the event that all saints from all centuries before were waiting for.
Lastly, have or do you plan to listen to and/or read N.T. Wright on these topics?
Well, you said in an earlier post the following:
Since I think what Wright said applies to this discussion (and it was very helpful for me), would it be okay with you if I posted an excerpt of what he said about the resurrection body?
I guess I was waiting but I would like for you to do that?

Your beginning statement, Rick, concerning Paul's letters to the thessolonians said "The Thessalonican Letters do not support full-preterism" I believe he actually supports Full-Preterism with his letters and here is how.

(1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

(1 Thessalonians 2:19) 19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul assures these first century Thessalonians, just as Christ had assured his disciples, that some of them would be alive at the second coming of Christ. Now, lets look at verse 16 specifically

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Let's compare that with the Olivet Discourse

(Mat 24:31 NASB) "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Unless there are multiple trumpet comings, these verses are speaking of the same eventthe gathering of the elect at the second coming of Christ. We have already established that Matthew 24:31 is in regards to the destruction of Israel, and that it would happen in the lifetime of the disciples. Paul is simply validating to the Thessalonians what Christ first voiced to the original Apostles years earlier.

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11) 1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

(1 Thessalonians 5:23) 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by psychohmike » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:13 am

Let us also not forget that, "Just because it wasn't recorded doesn't mean that it didn't happen...It just means that it wasn't recorded."

Also...consider that only 2 of the 7 churches in Revelation were faithful. It was a remnant. A small remnant of those who were faithful.

If a remnant would have been raptured in such a tumultuous time...would anyone have really noticed? Or would it have been chalked up to Roman persecution?

Better question is...If the TRUE...FAITHFUL remnant had been raptured...Who would have been left around?

Just something to think about

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by RickC » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:31 am

Allyn,

Thanks for your next reply..."You talked me into it." (I'm getting ready to post this from Word). What's in this post doesn't cover the many things you've written in your replies and the rest of the thread: Nor the many other errors in full-preterism, imo. I'm seeing so many [biblical] contradictions that a list would be 12? 25?...I don't know!
Anyways....

Re: N.T. Wright
My post on page 2, August 23rd: NTW on the physicality of the resurrection body, which full-preterists deny. I think it's been successfully demonstrated by Wright and others that first century Jews, including the Jewish-Christians, believed in a future transformed physical body in "life after life after death," as Wright explains it.

Two verses you quoted to support a first century rapture/second coming speak to this:
20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory… (Phil 3:20, 21)

We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (1 John 3:2b)


Paul wrote believers would experience bodily transformation: That the bodies of believers will become conformed into the glorious 'state' of Christ's physical body. John wrote believers will be like Jesus when they see him.

I'm assuming you date the rapture at the end of the Great War. You've also stated it was "secret" and that though no one ever recorded anything about it, it happened. According to Eusebius, the Christians living prior to 70AD in Jerusalem stayed on earth, escaping to Pella: The idea that they were raptured can't be supported historically. If just one believer had gotten raptured, I'm sure the event would have lived on in church history!

By the way, nothing in Thessalonians nor the Bible supports being "raptured to Heaven." Full-preterists and dispensationalists "bring this idea into the text!" It cannot be found there!
You wrote:Paul assures these first century Thessalonians, just as Christ had assured his disciples, that some of them would be alive at the second coming of Christ.
No, he did not. Here's what Paul taught on this:
1 Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

In 1 Thessalonians 4 Paul informed the believers that their deceased [believing] loved ones would be physically resurrected. In 1 Thess 5:9, Paul continues with the same theme..."whether we are awake" (living at the second advent)..."or [whether we are] asleep" (those among the Thessalonians who had died or would die before the Lord's Advent, Paul included: he was a "we"). We know from other texts that Paul anticipated possible, if not probable, death before the Lord returned.
You wrote:The living Christians did not actually see Christ;
Their bodies were not transformed;
They were absent for their own wedding; the bridegroom returned, but failed to pick up his bride.
At Christ’s ascension, he rose into a literal cloud and disappeared into the spirit realm. He was predicted to return “in just the same way” (Acts 1:11). This requires a literal cloud.
First, you apparently believe that the Christians who John wrote to were an exception: That only John's readers or disciples would see Jesus at his appearing (second coming or advent). How do you account for this exception? Where in scripture is it stated that John's teaching applies to a "select few"? (bold, because you need to give an account for this). Youre sounding quasi-gnostic, Allyn.

Christ's teaching about the bride and bridegroom was about unbelieving Jews, and not the Christians!

Heaven is the dwelling of God, I'm sure you would agree. Your calling where the Lord went "the spirit realm" is quasi-gnostic. I think you've been influenced by Platonic thought rather than the Hebrew thinking of the biblical authors; which goes back to hermeneutics and understanding the scriptures from out of the worldview of its authors.

Heaven is not our final dwelling place. This mistaken idea isn't restricted to full-preterists! Many, if not a majority, of so-called 'orthodox' Christians also assume this! (I refer you again to N.T. Wright).
You wrote:What was the Rapture supposed to be?

The first-century living Christians were predicted to experience several things. They would see Jesus at his return:

Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matt. 16:28)
I understand your interpretation based from within your system. However, the first century prediction of the Son of Man coming in his kingdom isn't necessarily the second coming. I trust you're aware of alternate interpretations on this. Acts is full of illustrations: Here's a couple (NIV):

Acts 2:36
Therefore, let all Israel be assured that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Later, Stephen exclaimed to the Jews, "Look, I see the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" (Acts 9:56). They heard this truth, covered their ears, and killed Stephen! This happened in 33 or 34 AD.

The Apostles, Stephen, and the Sanhedrin saw Jesus coming in his kingdom, or the kingdom of Jesus coming. He---and it---had arrived! and was invading all Israel! The context of Matt 16:28, while possibly referring to the second coming, could be about the current rewards of those who would follow Jesus in their lifetimes: This is compatible with Jesus' teaching elsewhere. The Christians didn't have to wait till 70AD to be "blessed are the....".[/i]
You also wrote:As they rose into the air to meet Jesus in the clouds, their physical bodies would be instantly transformed to be like Christ’s glorious body:

20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory… (Phil 3:20, 21)


As above, this is the transformation of real physical bodies: Christ's and of believers' at the second coming.

Paul is writing about the humble state of our physical existence which is, obviously, before death. But this transformation isn't limited to living believers. Paul wrote about resurrected bodies of the living and the dead being "changed" in 1 Cor 15. "Changed bodily, gloriously transformed, conformed to being like him."

I wrote:The Thessalonian letters teach one future Day of the Lord/rapture/final judgment: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...the dead in Christ will rise first...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...[when Jesus will be] marveled at and glorified among all those who have believed...[when] God "will pay back trouble to those who trouble you."

You replied: Did Paul say "every believer of all time" or was he speaking of all from the beginning of time up to the 2nd coming?


The Greek for "marveled at among those who have believed" indicates every believer. A simple phrase, easily understood. This marvellng occurs at the time of bodily transformation into the likeness of his glorious body.

Paul had no need to mention a "time." Every event in my above quote is crystal clear as occuring all-at-once. I don't see how anyone can miss it! (though I did debate a dispensationalist on & off for about 3 years @ Beliefnet. I think couldn't see it due to his system. I "won" the debate as I don't think He could even understand my questions...and thus, didn't answer them)....

So, I have to go for now. Here's a quick summary. Correct me where you feel I'm mistaken.
You believe:
1) John's disciples saw Jesus at the rapture/second advent but no one else did.
2) The Thessalonian Christians saw Jesus face-to-face at the rapture.
3) Numbers 1 & 2 aren't contradictory.
4) A "secret rapture" happened that no one "knew" about till full-preterism was introduced in the 1800s.
5) The Jews and the Jewish-Christians were mistaken about physical, bodily resurrection.
6) Plato was right about the human spirit living on in an "after-life out of body existence."
7) Heaven is the location of the eternal state (of existence).
8) The New Heavens and the New Earth are already here. But we won't "be" on the New Earth at some point, since we are going to [New?] Heaven. The Bible doesn't describe the New Heavens and New Earth as being the same place.
9) The Blessed Hope of Christians (being physically united with Jesus at his appearing) happened in the first century. Those of us born after August, 70AD are under a "different program," cannot experience it, and are mistaken to hope for it.
10) Jesus was raised physically but his body is, somehow, no longer physical. This isn't contradictory.

I could go on (& on) but...have a good weekend! :)
Last edited by RickC on Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by Allyn » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:03 pm

Youre sounding quasi-gnostic, Allyn.
This is totally uncalled for, Rick. If you want to continue a dialog with me on this subject then you will have to knock this kind of stuff off. No hard feelings but I won't be available if it continues.

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by Sean » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:31 am

If I had to pick one problem with full preterism it would be best summarized in 1 Cor 15 speaking about the resurrection:

1 Cor 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

I don't see an end to all rule authority and power. Nor do I see and end to death. I do realize Jerusalem was defeated, and this is proof that Jesus is on the throne, trampling His enemies. It's also proof that Jesus rule is over the physical earth and He is trampling down physical enemies as well as "principalities and powers in the heavenly places". But not all enemies have been defeated yet. Death has always been a result of the curse brought on by the sin of Adam and Eve and their being cast from the tree of life. Is this never going to be remedied, even though Paul says it will?
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by RickC » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:48 am

Allyn, et al,
Earlier in the thread (with minor amendments here), I wrote:I've been listening to an Eastern Orthodox guy's lectures on Church History. In one of them, Jeff McDonald (the guy) explains that, in 1 Cor. 15, Paul is addressing Platonic ideas (as opposed to gnostic, btw). The Platonists, who were influential in Corinth, did not believe in a physical (bodily) resurrection. The spirit, in Platonic thought, was "released from matter," (the body which was considered evil), at death. Platonists believed that, at death, one's spirit would leave its body (the material realm is evil) and ascend back up into the "pure spiritual realm"....

So, in Platonic thought there was no such thing as a spiritual body: Only the spirit exists after physical life. Many Christians also mistakenly believe they "will be in heaven forever" (without their bodies, only their spirit will live on after they die), imo.
Jeff McDonald said that Paul was addressing and/or correcting Platonic thought in 1 Corinthians 15 {on the 'nature' of the resurrected body}. McDonald also pointed out how gnosticism was influenced by Platonism {and/or a "Greek" philosophical worldview}. But he made distinctions between gnostic and Platonic thought. If I'm not mistaken, McDonald would probably define the influence of philosophy over the Corinthians as Platonic and not [specifically] gnostic.

That being said, I retract what I said on "quasi-gnostic," Allyn.
I need to study this out in more detail...and take notes this time.

At the same time---and this is possibly a different topic deserving a new thread---I believe Christians are wrong in thinking that [only] our spirits will live on forever in heaven. This [Platonic] belief is probably shared by a majority of "orthodox" Christians...as far as that may go.

Till I study this through, I may not have much posting time for this thread.
Have a good weekend, :)

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Re: Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

Post by Allyn » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:11 am

Sean wrote:If I had to pick one problem with full preterism it would be best summarized in 1 Cor 15 speaking about the resurrection:

1 Cor 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

I don't see an end to all rule authority and power. Nor do I see and end to death. I do realize Jerusalem was defeated, and this is proof that Jesus is on the throne, trampling His enemies. It's also proof that Jesus rule is over the physical earth and He is trampling down physical enemies as well as "principalities and powers in the heavenly places". But not all enemies have been defeated yet. Death has always been a result of the curse brought on by the sin of Adam and Eve and their being cast from the tree of life. Is this never going to be remedied, even though Paul says it will?
Hi Sean,

Then do you have a problem with Jesus' own words here as well?

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

How is it that Martha never died?

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