Elect

[_Steve]

Why? Because you say so? Where does the scripture say this?

By the way, I( thought you "stamped the dust of your feet." Double minded, are we?

[Guest]

Hello Steve

Quote:

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Traveler,

You wrote:

The scripture never implies man has the power...of his own un-enabled will to come to Christ for salvation.

"Nor does it plainly say the opposite."

Well, I beg to differ. I believe John 6:44 says it plainly.

Quote:
If that were true, the implication is man has the ability to keep the Law unto salvation and not need an ultimate saviour.

"How so? If I say a man can believe on Christ by the exercise of his will, how is this remotely similar to saying "man has the ability to keep the Law unto salvation and not need an ultimate saviour"? This is an extreme non sequitur. Faith is one thing, obedience to the Law is entirely another. The ability to do one in no way suggests the ability to do the other."

The key to what I said is unto "salvation". Did not God hold out the possibility that the Jew could be saved if he kept perfect obedience to the Law? What was the whole purpose behind Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, when he in fact amplified the Law in such a way as to show man's inability to keep it? How can faith be one thing and obedience to the Law another? Do they not go hand in hand? In God's understanding, without faith it is impossible to please Him. Pleasing God is obedience by doing what the Law required, was it not? The Jews believed they were keeping the Law.
Jesus showed them they were not. They needed a Saviour. They needed a new heart. They needed to be regenerated. That is the promise of God
in Ezek.36:25-27. Here is the clearest picture of regeneration in scripture that I know of!
Man will not believe the Gospel without a prior work of God indeed. If that is all there is to it, then we have no disagreement. But, that is not all the Word says on the matter. Until a man is "moved" to do so, he will not submit, come to, believe, etc.. because he CANNOT until he be drawn and given a new heart.
That says alot more than merely agreeing to a "prior work of God".

In Him,
Bob

[Guest]

I know you are wanting me to leave Steve, and I am.
Just finishing off a couple of discussions before I go, or rather, after I was not made welcome to stay by you.

Mark

[_Steve]

Hi Bob,

Your views are different from mine on more than the matter of the sequence of salvation events. For example, you write:

"Did not God hold out the possibility that the Jew could be saved if he kept perfect obedience to the Law? What was the whole purpose behind Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, when he in fact amplified the Law in such a way as to show man's inability to keep it? How can faith be one thing and obedience to the Law another? Do they not go hand in hand?"

While obedience to God and faith in God do indeed "go hand in hand," they are not the same thing. An ignition key goes "hand in hand" with an ignition switch, but they are not the same things. One activates the other. Faith activates obedience, but it is the faith that justifies before God. Obedience is the outcome of salvation, not the cause.

I don't believe that the keeping of the Law ever had anything to do with earning salvation. It had to do with receiving covenant blessings. Salvation was by faith, apart from the works of the Law, as we see in Abraham (Gen.15:6) and David (Ps.32:1). David broke the Law terribly, but is saved nonetheless. The Law was not impossible to keep, and was, in fact, required, if Israel was to maintain their end of the covenant (Deut.28).

I certainly don't believe that "the whole purpose behind the Sermon on the Mount" was "to show man's inability to keep it." I believe the purpose of the Sermon on the Mount was to teach the disciples how to live, so as to be prepared for the judgment (Matt.7:21), and also for the storms of life (Matt.7:24-25). It is not impossible for a Christian to keep the Sermon on the Mount, and it is a mandate that we do so (Luke 6:46/ Matt.28:18-20).

You write:

"They needed a new heart. They needed to be regenerated. That is the promise of God in Ezek.36:25-27. Here is the clearest picture of regeneration in scripture that I know of! Man will not believe the Gospel without a prior work of God indeed. If that is all there is to it, then we have no disagreement. But, that is not all the Word says on the matter. Until a man is "moved" to do so, he will not submit, come to, believe, etc.. because he CANNOT until he be drawn and given a new heart."

You read far more into Ezekiel's words than he actually says. Arminians also believe that God gives us a new heart at regeneration, and that is the whole of what Ezekiel says. We are discussing whether there are any conditions for His doing this for any given individual. We are saying, along with scripture, that there are:

1. There is the preparation of the heart (get a concordance and see who is always held responsible for the preparation of the heart);

2. There is humility. "God gives grace to the humble." (using the same concordance, see who it is that is required to do the humbling);

3. There is faith. Can you think of any verses that place the obligation of believing upon God? It is we who are commanded to believe. It is our responsibility.

Thus, there are reasons why the grace of regeneration is given to some and not to others. According to scripture, there are conditions to be met. These conditions should not be confused with "keeping the law," however. The latter is the proof of, not a condition of, salvation.

[_Steve]

Mark,

You wrote:

"Just finishing off a couple of discussions before I go, or rather, after I was not made welcome to stay by you."

If you were not welcome here, you would be gone. I would have banned you. Your incessant whining of the past few days is because I deleted a post of yours, wherein you blatantly violated the standards that I had communicated to everyone (just the day before!) about posting here. I warned that I would delete any such posts, and you decided to test me. I passed. You failed.

[Guest]

Bob wrote:

They needed a Saviour. They needed a new heart. They needed to be regenerated. That is the promise of God
in Ezek.36:25-27. Here is the clearest picture of regeneration in scripture that I know of!

Let's compare the passage in Ezekial with Paul's conversion.

Ezekiel 36:25 (New King James Version)

25. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

Acts 22:16

16. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Ezekiel 36:26

26. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Acts 9:17

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Hmmm. Could it be that Paul's blindness and restoration of sight symbolized something more than physical sight?

Thanks for bringing up Ezekial 36:25-27; it fits very well with the view I hold of Paul's conversion.

[Guest]

Hello Steve,

Sorry it is taking so long for me to reply. There are a few things I would like to discuss with you.

Quote: "Obedience is the outcome of salvation, not the cause."

I agree with this part of your conclusion. But what is the intial cause of our regeneration? Why do you believe it is "activated" by faith? What I am trying to get at and demonstrate from scripture is where the first cause of our relationship with God lay. Is it with our faith then comes His grace? Or is it His grace through our faith that comes first? Ezek. 36:25-27
the emphasis is on what God does and not what man initiates through "faith". In fact looking on the whole context from ch 34-37, the emphasis is upon the "I will(s)" of God in regard to the restoration of Israel under the New Covenant. The point to the prophecy is God's concern for His Holy name which has been profaned among the nations.
It seems God is not waiting for Israel to turn to Him in faith, but rather they will be "moved" or turned to faith in order to follow His decrees with the gift of a new heart. It seems the real "non-sequitur" is the Arminian position that has faith preceding regeneration. Now I believe God has given all men common grace to at least know He exists. Paul clearly says so in Romans. But efficatious grace is entirely another matter. Election to salvation is obviously a part of the issue of regeneration. So is foreknowlage and predestination.
About your point on the Law. I agree Law keeping was never about ones earning salvation, but rather keeping onesself "right with God" through faith. The point I made was looking from what had developed in rabbinic Judaism that God somehow owed them salvation by their"careful observation" of the Law. The Sermon on the Mount wherein Jesus "raised the bar" shattered that notion. Paul said it best when he said the Law "killed him". The "outward obedience" to the requirements of the Law does not change the heart. This is what I had in mind. Also, there is much more to the word salvation than merely forgiveness of sin. You would agree it is a deliverence from the bondage of sin and death over which we have no power or authority. Its like the typology we find in the Exodus of Israel. In type and shadow, God works to redeem Israel. They had no ability to free themselves or even to initiate the process. It is the same in regeneration. God does not "wait" for us to initiate the process. He moves in grace upon our wills, as I understand the process.

Peace in Him,
Bob

[Guest]

Hello Homer,

I am trying to understand the point you made. Would you elaborate a little more? My entire focus is upon what God does apart from and prior to man's response in regeneration. Faith is the response, not the cause of our regeneration, as I understand it. Paul as I've said in an earlier post, would have continued in his persecution of Christians. But God intervened out of His own set purpose and will. So was it Paul's own "will" that brought him to Christ, or God's? The physical blindness Paul suffered certainly pointed to a deeper spiritual blindness. But lets not leave the reality of how Paul was brought to faith. God was the initiator. Paul was entirely passive in the process until he was "quickened" or made alive by the Spirit of God. He was brought to faith apart from his will. Or better he was made willing.. It is my opinion that this demonstrates (in a very radical way) how one is "drawn" to Christ by the Father.

Peace in Him,
Bob

"For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" Phil 2:13 KJV

[Guest]

On Ezekiel 36....

Some might take this passage to be speaking prophetically of the nation Israel not only being restored but also being empowered to practice obedience. People who accept this view relegate it to an “end-time” event. (Paul seemed to think that all Israel would be restored [Romans 11].)

But it also is seemingly prophetic of the New Covenant; so let’s talk about the Old Covenant first. Under the Old Covenant the people were also saved by grace through faith. That is, God also demonstrated His kindness toward these people by extending to them mercy (salvation); it was accessed by faith. But what was the object of faith. I readily admit that I am skeptical that the Old Testament (OT) Hebrews were looking for a suffering Messiah and that the object of their faith was this Messiah. Instead I think they had faith that God would fulfill His promise to bless them as a nation, faith that God would be their God and they would be His people as long as they obeyed His ordinances. So their faith basically consisted of believing that God was who He said He was and He would do what He said He would do (e.g. make them a great nation, be their God as long as they fulfilled His ordinances, relent from His wrath if they repented and acknowledged Him, etc.) So faith brought them under the Old Covenant but the Old Covenant did not provide a means of empowering the people to obey God’s righteous decrees. It provided them with the Law, but the Law was not able empower the OT Hebrews to live a godly life (because it was weakened by man’s tendency toward sin); it merely set the standard for a godly life. Their faith was demonstrated by their obedience in trying to observe the Law and then offering sacrifices when they failed to do so—just as God had commanded them.

The New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, it is still by grace through faith that we are saved. That is, God demonstrates His kindness toward us by extending mercy (salvation) by sending His Son; it is accessed through faith. Christ is the object of faith. This is still no different than the faith of the Old Testament: believing that God is who He says He is and He will do what He says He will do (i.e. He is not a liar when He says “whosoever believes in Him [Christ] will not perish, but have everlasting life”). So faith brings us under the New Covenant and under this Covenant God births within us a new life that desires to please Him and obey Him and He puts to death sinful man so that sin would no longer be our masters. The Law could not do this, but Christ could and He did. As under the Old Covenant, our faith is still demonstrated by our obedience.

Now we see the main point. The Old Covenant gave the OT Hebrews the Law while the New Covenant gives us Christ. The Law was unable to empower them to live godly lives; it merely set the standard. However Christ is able to empower us to live godly lives because through his death and resurrection we have new life that delights in God’s law, sin no longer has a strangle hold on us, and the Holy Spirit dwells within us to lead us into all truth. Now let’s see how this fits with Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 36:17-21

"Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity. Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them. When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.' But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.”

So we see that the Old Covenant, which provided them with the Law, did not empower them to live godly lives. Instead they defiled the land with their wickedness. Therefore something else is needed—the New Covenant. And what will be different about the New Covenant:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.”

Ezekiel gives the details of the New Covenant and explains how these will empower them to be obedient. So let’s reiterate:

1) God’s grace is foremost: both covenants are contingent on God being rich in mercy.

2) Access into both covenants is by faith—believing that God is who He says He is and that He will do what He says He will do.

3) Old Covenant: gave us the Law, which set the standard for right living, but did not empower us to obedience.

New Covenant: gave us Christ, who fulfilled the Law and who died and rose so that we might have new life that delights in God’s law, that sin would no longer reign in our bodies and that the Holy Spirit would lead us into truth. This does empower us to obedience.

4) Faith is demonstrated by obedience in both covenants.

This passage is not talking about "regeneration before faith". It is talking about the details of the New Covenant and how under the New Covenant people will be empowered to obey His statutes unlike under the Old Covenant which did not empower them to obey His statutes.

[I should say more about people living under the Old Covenant, but I don't have time.]

Finally, let me try to state this plainly. Faith does not exist without God's grace--His umerited favor in sending His Son as a propitiation for sin. Faith is impossible without God's grace--His unmerited favor in convicting the world of righteousness, sin and judgment through His Son, the Holy Spirit and the testimony of His Word. So grace always precedes faith. Regeneration, another grace, follows faith. This is the non-Calvinist contention. Please refrain from stating that faith precedes grace in the non-Calvinist system unless you qualify it as the grace of regeneration.

Lewis

[Guest]

Hello Lewis

Quote: "Please refrain from stating that faith precedes grace in the non-Calvinist system unless you qualify it as the grace of regeneration".

If your comment is directed toward me, I've never said" faith precedes grace" but rather regeneration precedes faith.

Peace,
Bob