This might be what Lewis was referring to. You seemed to indicate here that you believe that in a non-Calvinist system our faith would come before God's grace. What Lewis was stating (I think) is that this is not the non-Calvinist position. Non-Calvinists do believe that God's grace comes before faith, just not the "grace of regeneration" as Lewis referred to it.What I am trying to get at and demonstrate from scripture is where the first cause of our relationship with God lay. Is it with our faith then comes His grace? Or is it His grace through our faith that comes first? Ezek. 36:25-27
Elect
Traveler, you said:
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"How is it that Christians today will pay $20 to hear the latest Christian concert, but Jesus can't draw a crowd?"
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
Hello Rae,
I have in mind the grace of regeneration which I understand, enables us to come to faith. It has been my contention all along that faith follows the grace of regeneration. Though I am not a Calvinist, I do believe this view best describes what the scripture is teaching us about new birth. It just so happens that Calvinists came to the same conclusion long before I did.
Peace in Him,
Bob
I have in mind the grace of regeneration which I understand, enables us to come to faith. It has been my contention all along that faith follows the grace of regeneration. Though I am not a Calvinist, I do believe this view best describes what the scripture is teaching us about new birth. It just so happens that Calvinists came to the same conclusion long before I did.
Peace in Him,
Bob
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Traveler,
My intention is not to be belligerent and if I've come across as such then I apologize. The point I was trying to make was that we need to be absolutely clear with our terminology in order that there be no confusion. Rae is correct in the explanation of my comment. When Calvinists make comments or ask questions such as you did "Is it with our faith then comes His grace?", the implication of such a comment is that the non-Calvinist thinks that a man has faith apart from God's grace. I certainly do not hold this to be true and I'm sure most non-Calvinists do not. We can use the term "grace" in a very broad sense to encompass all of salvation, but when we are specifically speaking about different aspects of salvation then we must clarify what grace (gift) we are referring to:
1) God's grace (unmerited favor = gift) in sending His Son....
2) God's grace (unmerited favor = gift) in convicting the world....
3) God's grace (unmerited favor = gift) of regeneration....
4) etc. = other graces (gifts)...
I mean Calvinists call faith a grace. So technically a Calvinist might say, "The grace of regeneration (logically) precedes the grace of faith."
We just need to be precise with our language in order that we can understand each other's position and not have our comments come across in a way that seems to misrepresent the other side's position.
Lewis
My intention is not to be belligerent and if I've come across as such then I apologize. The point I was trying to make was that we need to be absolutely clear with our terminology in order that there be no confusion. Rae is correct in the explanation of my comment. When Calvinists make comments or ask questions such as you did "Is it with our faith then comes His grace?", the implication of such a comment is that the non-Calvinist thinks that a man has faith apart from God's grace. I certainly do not hold this to be true and I'm sure most non-Calvinists do not. We can use the term "grace" in a very broad sense to encompass all of salvation, but when we are specifically speaking about different aspects of salvation then we must clarify what grace (gift) we are referring to:
1) God's grace (unmerited favor = gift) in sending His Son....
2) God's grace (unmerited favor = gift) in convicting the world....
3) God's grace (unmerited favor = gift) of regeneration....
4) etc. = other graces (gifts)...
I mean Calvinists call faith a grace. So technically a Calvinist might say, "The grace of regeneration (logically) precedes the grace of faith."
We just need to be precise with our language in order that we can understand each other's position and not have our comments come across in a way that seems to misrepresent the other side's position.
Lewis
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Lewis,
Thanks. And you are right. Looking at my post, I see how it could be misunderstood. My apology. Grace always precedes. I should have phrased my question to read; does the grace of faith precede the grace of regeneration? Or is the order reversed? Faith first then regeneration?
What do we have that we have not recieved? Didn't Paul say that somewhere?
Peace in Him,
Bob
Thanks. And you are right. Looking at my post, I see how it could be misunderstood. My apology. Grace always precedes. I should have phrased my question to read; does the grace of faith precede the grace of regeneration? Or is the order reversed? Faith first then regeneration?
What do we have that we have not recieved? Didn't Paul say that somewhere?
Peace in Him,
Bob
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Bob,
You wrote:
Consider Romans 8:1-11:
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4. that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Does not this passage clearly indicate that our bondage to sin is broken only when we are in Christ? And when do we enter into Christ?
Matthew 28:19
19. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in ( eis, literally into) the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
Romans 6:3
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into (eis) Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Galations 3:27
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into (eis) Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
It is important to note that the Greek preposition eis always bears the idea of progress from one place to another, one state to another, etc., thus I believe the clear import of each of these passages is that one normatively enters into Christ at baptism. We receive the Holy Spirit, "born of the Spirit", in Christ and are set free by the Spirit's power. Thus I see Paul most likely regenerated at Damascus.
You wrote:
If I am understanding you correctly, you are clearly saying that you believe the regenerated person is delivered from the bondage of sin, set free, at regeneration, which precedes faith . My own view is that when we become a disciple, when we are in Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit (are regenerated). We are only enabled to be set free from sin in Christ, and I would certainly say that faith precedes our being in Christ.Also, there is much more to the word salvation than merely forgiveness of sin. You would agree it is a deliverence from the bondage of sin and death over which we have no power or authority. Its like the typology we find in the Exodus of Israel. In type and shadow, God works to redeem Israel. They had no ability to free themselves or even to initiate the process. It is the same in regeneration.
Consider Romans 8:1-11:
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4. that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Does not this passage clearly indicate that our bondage to sin is broken only when we are in Christ? And when do we enter into Christ?
Matthew 28:19
19. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in ( eis, literally into) the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
Romans 6:3
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into (eis) Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Galations 3:27
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into (eis) Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
It is important to note that the Greek preposition eis always bears the idea of progress from one place to another, one state to another, etc., thus I believe the clear import of each of these passages is that one normatively enters into Christ at baptism. We receive the Holy Spirit, "born of the Spirit", in Christ and are set free by the Spirit's power. Thus I see Paul most likely regenerated at Damascus.
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A Berean
Hello Homer,
I do believe regeneration starts the process of being "placed into Christ".
Paul is not teaching about regeneration here. He is teaching (in Ch 7) from the perspective of a Jew under the Law of Moses. A Jew was bound by the Law of Moses like a marriage. Until death frees the wife from the law of her husband, she is bound. this is the Jew under the Law apart from Christ. But Jesus was crucified. He by his death ended the Mosaic covenant and sets us free from the old law and makes us eligible to be married to anoth, i.e. Christ. Rom 8:1, has the "therefore" clause which is Pauls summation of ch 7. Only those who are born of the Spirit (regenerated), Romans 8:1-11 are the recipiants of "no condemnation".
Dicipleship follows.
Peace in Him,
Bob
I do believe regeneration starts the process of being "placed into Christ".
Paul is not teaching about regeneration here. He is teaching (in Ch 7) from the perspective of a Jew under the Law of Moses. A Jew was bound by the Law of Moses like a marriage. Until death frees the wife from the law of her husband, she is bound. this is the Jew under the Law apart from Christ. But Jesus was crucified. He by his death ended the Mosaic covenant and sets us free from the old law and makes us eligible to be married to anoth, i.e. Christ. Rom 8:1, has the "therefore" clause which is Pauls summation of ch 7. Only those who are born of the Spirit (regenerated), Romans 8:1-11 are the recipiants of "no condemnation".
Dicipleship follows.
Peace in Him,
Bob
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Bob,
It seems to me the passage indicates that being set free and having the Spirit only come with being "in Christ". Nothing is said regarding regeneration coming first.
It seems to me the passage indicates that being set free and having the Spirit only come with being "in Christ". Nothing is said regarding regeneration coming first.
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A Berean
Homer,
It wasn't necessary for Paul to explain it from the perspective of regeneration because he already assumes that those who are in Christ are regenerated. If you are saying being placed into Christ is a pre- condition to salvation, I agree with you hands down. What I have said repeatedly though, regeneration is what "gets the ball rolling" . Now I don't know about you. But when I was brought to Christ by the Spirit, faith was the result, albeit "mustard seed" faith. I didn't have faith first. Faith came later and is still under "development". Like what Paul said; ..."he who began a good work in you will carry it onto completion".. Phil 1:6. When did God begin His "good work" in me? I can't point to a date in time. I know when I was baptized. But that was after I came to faith in Christ. I know I had some very profound dreams looking back, and some very interesting circumstances occured in my life which I believe was Gods hand directing me to Himself. Is this part of regeneration? I believe so. Arminians would call it previenient grace.
I don't have a problem with that terminolgy. At least it recognizes a prior work of God unto the elect in Christ.
And finally, we would all have to agree regardless of our theological position on the subject of regeneration, "the process ain't over yet". There will be a completion. Amen? We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works...hmmm? His workmanship created... Think about that one for awhile brother..
Peace in Him,
Bob
It wasn't necessary for Paul to explain it from the perspective of regeneration because he already assumes that those who are in Christ are regenerated. If you are saying being placed into Christ is a pre- condition to salvation, I agree with you hands down. What I have said repeatedly though, regeneration is what "gets the ball rolling" . Now I don't know about you. But when I was brought to Christ by the Spirit, faith was the result, albeit "mustard seed" faith. I didn't have faith first. Faith came later and is still under "development". Like what Paul said; ..."he who began a good work in you will carry it onto completion".. Phil 1:6. When did God begin His "good work" in me? I can't point to a date in time. I know when I was baptized. But that was after I came to faith in Christ. I know I had some very profound dreams looking back, and some very interesting circumstances occured in my life which I believe was Gods hand directing me to Himself. Is this part of regeneration? I believe so. Arminians would call it previenient grace.
I don't have a problem with that terminolgy. At least it recognizes a prior work of God unto the elect in Christ.
And finally, we would all have to agree regardless of our theological position on the subject of regeneration, "the process ain't over yet". There will be a completion. Amen? We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works...hmmm? His workmanship created... Think about that one for awhile brother..
Peace in Him,
Bob
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Traveler, (Bob), Hello,
For now, I don't have a final opinion of exactly when regeneration happens but I'm Non-Calvinist on it (I do not think it happens "before (or separate from) faith"). From what I've studied so far, the NT speaks of regeneration in terms of those who have been "born of God" (in the past tense) and applies to those who, also, have had saving-faith.
I've never really heard your particular angle on this before. You see regeneration as a process? I see it as an act of God (a particular event in time) in the same way a real child is born: you are born (or you haven't been born). Before being born again, I see faith developing in a process in unbelievers as the Holy Spirit testifies about Christ and their sins to them; they grow from no or little faith, to more & more faith, till they have saving-faith which is proximal to when regeneration happens, imo. This could happen very fast or over a period of time (Peter's audience on the Day of Pentecost -- or -- King Agrippa, "short time or not" Paul prayed Agrippa would become a Christian, (Acts 26:29).
I can't think of verses that would support an idea of something like an unbeliever's "pre-natal regenerate state" as all are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" and/or an "I died" state (Ro 7:9b) Your concept strikes me as odd but thanks, because you got me to thinking!
As to exactly "when" the new birth (regeneration) happens; Jesus, in John 3, may be the only person in the NT who actually, specifically and directly, said something about it (?). I'm studying this out and will probably start a new thread on John 3 before long...there is a lot to consider. I'd like to approach it exegetically (interpret the whole section).
Homer, (I hope you see this),
I said regeneration is an act (or work) of God that happens at a particular time. But I'm not like those who say you have to know exactly when it occurred. In my life, it has been Arminians who sort of "demanded" I know the exact day & time...(down to the minute). They were so concerned I hadn't been saved! I finally asked them to interview me on what I believed (it was all gospel and they seemed to be satisfied, more or less, the poor things). We don't necessarily have to know, with razor precision, when we were born again...just that we were, imo. At any rate, Praise the Lord! I have been!
Thanks,
Rick
You weren't posting to me but...(I hope you don't mind)...I also noticed on another thread that you think regeneration "begins" with when "God made us alive in Christ" (Eph 2:5a). I didn't reply to your post there, though I don't agree with your interpretation of the passage (and fully realize you weren't offering a complete exegesis of it...which we might need to do, perhaps later?). Briefly, I think "new life begins" at regeneration and being "made alive in Christ" is regeneration, imo.Posting to Homer, you wrote:I do believe regeneration starts the process of being "placed into Christ".
For now, I don't have a final opinion of exactly when regeneration happens but I'm Non-Calvinist on it (I do not think it happens "before (or separate from) faith"). From what I've studied so far, the NT speaks of regeneration in terms of those who have been "born of God" (in the past tense) and applies to those who, also, have had saving-faith.
I've never really heard your particular angle on this before. You see regeneration as a process? I see it as an act of God (a particular event in time) in the same way a real child is born: you are born (or you haven't been born). Before being born again, I see faith developing in a process in unbelievers as the Holy Spirit testifies about Christ and their sins to them; they grow from no or little faith, to more & more faith, till they have saving-faith which is proximal to when regeneration happens, imo. This could happen very fast or over a period of time (Peter's audience on the Day of Pentecost -- or -- King Agrippa, "short time or not" Paul prayed Agrippa would become a Christian, (Acts 26:29).
I can't think of verses that would support an idea of something like an unbeliever's "pre-natal regenerate state" as all are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" and/or an "I died" state (Ro 7:9b) Your concept strikes me as odd but thanks, because you got me to thinking!
As to exactly "when" the new birth (regeneration) happens; Jesus, in John 3, may be the only person in the NT who actually, specifically and directly, said something about it (?). I'm studying this out and will probably start a new thread on John 3 before long...there is a lot to consider. I'd like to approach it exegetically (interpret the whole section).
Homer, (I hope you see this),
I said regeneration is an act (or work) of God that happens at a particular time. But I'm not like those who say you have to know exactly when it occurred. In my life, it has been Arminians who sort of "demanded" I know the exact day & time...(down to the minute). They were so concerned I hadn't been saved! I finally asked them to interview me on what I believed (it was all gospel and they seemed to be satisfied, more or less, the poor things). We don't necessarily have to know, with razor precision, when we were born again...just that we were, imo. At any rate, Praise the Lord! I have been!
Thanks,
Rick
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Hello Rick,
Quote: "I've never really heard your particular angle on this before. You see regeneration as a process"?.
Yes Rick I do see regeneration as a process. When does life begin, at birth or conception? In the natural realm, were we aware of our own conception? How about election? Were you "elect" before you were aware of it or was it your awareness that made you elect and "alive" in Christ? Doesn't the Lord Himself imply as much when He said to Nicodemus;
"The wind (SPIRIT) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit". JN 3:8 NIV
The activity of the Spirit prior to our activity in the "flesh" is where I am
coming from. This is why I believe "faith" or vital trust in Christ is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith does not come first with out the prior work of the Spirit.
Your faith does not regenerate you nor is it the cause . It is the Spirit.
You and I simply respond-because we who were dead have been made alive! Amen?
To His Glory,
Bob
Quote: "I've never really heard your particular angle on this before. You see regeneration as a process"?.
Yes Rick I do see regeneration as a process. When does life begin, at birth or conception? In the natural realm, were we aware of our own conception? How about election? Were you "elect" before you were aware of it or was it your awareness that made you elect and "alive" in Christ? Doesn't the Lord Himself imply as much when He said to Nicodemus;
"The wind (SPIRIT) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit". JN 3:8 NIV
The activity of the Spirit prior to our activity in the "flesh" is where I am
coming from. This is why I believe "faith" or vital trust in Christ is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith does not come first with out the prior work of the Spirit.
Your faith does not regenerate you nor is it the cause . It is the Spirit.
You and I simply respond-because we who were dead have been made alive! Amen?
To His Glory,
Bob
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