Faith is "trust" ... not a "work"

IMO, my faith in God is:

 
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:18 am

Paidion, et al,

Interesting. Here's a an excerpt concerning Romans 2:1-16 from:
New Perspectives on Paul, by N.T. Wright
N.T. Wright wrote:3. Final Judgment According to Works

The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

This passage has often been read differently. We heard yesterday that Augustine had problems with it (perhaps the only thing in common between Augustine and E. P. Sanders). That is hardly surprising; here is the first statement about justification in Romans, and lo and behold it affirms justification according to works! The doers of the law, he says, will be justified (2.13). Shock, horror; Paul cannot (so many have thought) have really meant it. So the passage has been treated as a hypothetical position which Paul then undermines by showing that nobody can actually achieve it; or, by Sanders for instance, as a piece of unassimilated Jewish preaching which Paul allows to stand even though it conflicts with other things he says. But all such theories are undermined by exegesis itself, not least by observing the many small but significant threads that stitch Romans 2 into the fabric of the letter as a whole. Paul means what he says. Granted, he redefines what ‘doing the law’ really means; he does this in chapter 8, and again in chapter 10, with a codicil in chapter 13. But he makes the point most compactly in Philippians 1.6: he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus. The ‘works’ in accordance with which the Christian will be vindicated on the last day are not the unaided works of the self-help moralist. Nor are they the performance of the ethnically distinctive Jewish boundary-markers (sabbath, food-laws and circumcision). They are the things which show, rather, that one is in Christ; the things which are produced in one’s life as a result of the Spirit’s indwelling and operation. In this way, Romans 8.1–17 provides the real answer to Romans 2.1–16. Why is there now ‘no condemnation’? Because, on the one hand, God has condemned sin in the flesh of Christ (let no-one say, as some have done, that this theme is absent in my work; it was and remains central in my thinking and my spirituality); and, on the other hand, because the Spirit is at work to do, within believers, what the Law could not do – ultimately, to give life, but a life that begins in the present with the putting to death of the deeds of the body and the obedient submission to the leading of the Spirit.
In reading N.T. Wright and listening to some of his lectures I think he may have identified errors in the Protestant "system." Namely, that since the Reformers, Protestants have held to incorrect views about Paul and what he really said. Wright gets a lot of opposition from Calvinists, especially in the USA (he's been called a heretic), etc.

In "reading Paul" how N.T. Wright does, it takes me past the Reformation to the first century. This is something Protestants claim to do (the historical grammatical hermeneutical principle, interpreting the Bible in its historical context and setting, etc.). But do they really do it? Or are they proof-texting theologies from circa 16th century?

In Calvinism V. Non-Calvinism debates, arguments are given from scripture. But all too often the first century Jewish-Christian context is ignored -- and blatantly so by Calvinists, especially (it's just horrible). Texts are given to support or refute a doctrine when...did Calvinism or Arminianism even exist in the Apostles world? We know the precursor to Calvinism was around via the philosophers; many Calvinists actually "praise" them (odd).

Steve said in his Romans 9 lecture, "Why did Paul suddenly go off into an excursus on "Calvinism?" (that this was something he wondered about till he found out Paul wasn't talking about it -- at all)! I wondered about that too, Steve: great lecture :)

Nap time, thanks,
Rick
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:53 am

Lewis (nice to meet you),

I've enjoyed your posts.

Re: "....knowing the mind of God"
This is what I find most objectionable about Calvinism (and to a lesser extent Arminiansm)...that they think they actually know God's mind. If their ideas were presented as theories, that would be something different.

Imo, the Jews (and/or Jewish-Christians) who wrote the Bible could accept concepts we see as paradoxical or juxtaposed and contradictory. Ever since the death of the Apostles when the Church became predominently Gentile, it's "Western mind" has been deeply troubled with its many dilemmas (see, Augustine, Calvin, Arminius, Clark Pinnock, _____(next!), ____(and then, who will it be?).

Open Theism is an extension from Arminianism, which was rooted in Calvinism, that came from Augustine, who was influenced Neo-Platonism, which derived from Plato...who was a pagan.

I believe in paradox: God is Sovereign and knows all mysteries.
(He knows what He knows and I don't: My "High View" of God's Sovereignty :wink: ).....
I have to go to bed,
Rick
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Post by _tartanarmy » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:53 am

Sorry for still posting, but since this issue really has raised some interaction, I do think it a point to pursue.
Quote:
But keep in mind what the Arminian is saying.
He has made a decision by an act of his will to trust in Christ. His neighbour has not done so, therefore the Arminian is doing something that the neighbour is not doing, therefore the Arminian can have a boast before God, for he has made the vital difference by an act of his supposed free will.


Of all the things that Calvinists harp on, the claim that Arminians have something to "boast" about is the singularly most annoying.
I imagine it to be so, but nonetheless, if any of you cannot answer the charge, dealing with the statement, then whether or not the charge is annoying is neither here nor there.

Simply interact with the argument we put forth. If you can disprove the assertion, please simply do so.

The Arminian by an act of their free will is doing something that the unbeliever is not doing by an act of their supposed free will.
Hence, the difference between you is not sheer grace (Calvinist position), NO! It is your act of faith that makes the difference!
Justification is not by your "receiving" faith but by "doing" "your act of faith".
Whether it was being more spiritual, or more attuned, better able to grasp your need, more desire to know God etc, WHATEVER?

The bottom line is, the difference is found in "you" and not "the Grace of God alone". (Calvinism)

Now if you want to refute this "annoyance" then please explain exactly what it is between you and an unbeliever that makes you right with God, and them not right with God?

That is all I am asking for. It is really a simple question.
If I am broke, and someone offers me twenty bucks to get me to the end of the week, is my accepting this gift something to boast about? Of course not. It is humiliating, and is something that would cause me to praise and thank the person who helped me out. Not to boast about, to steal a little glory for myself.

I really wish Calvinists would hang this one up.
Again, that answer does not get at the "heart" of our objection.

Let us say that everyone is in need to get to the end of the week, and everyone is offered twenty bucks.

Why do you take it and the rest do not?


Again, it has to do with something you are doing, that they are not doing. Why you and not them? You have not answered anything at all.

Think deeper my fellow believers, please.

Mr Gregg, lets say the others who did not accept the twenty bucks came up to you and said, "it's not fair! You are set and I am not!"
Would you then reply, "You should have accepted! I did, and you did not! You were offered but you didn't take it! It's your own fault man!".

See the problem yet?

The Biblical picture has a few more elements that are not in the above story, so let me change the illustration to reflect a Biblical one.

I will put the two stories up, side by side for comparison, and hopefully some of you will interact. I will even provide scriptures for support, Mr Gregg.

Original illustration---If I am broke, and someone offers me twenty bucks to get me to the end of the week,

Biblical correction---I am destitute, totally ignorant of the fact and simply do not care, and a person I hate, offers to get me out of this mess once and for all!
1Co 15:19, Mat 22:11-12, Joh 15:25, Psa 35:19, Rom 1:30, 1Co 2:14, Rom 8:7

Original illustration---is my accepting this gift something to boast about?

Biblical correction---I am fine and need no help and I encourage others to think the same way
Rev 3:17, Luk 12:19, Rom 1:32

Original illustration---Of course not. It is humiliating, and is something that would cause me to praise and thank the person who helped me out.

Biblical correction---Why thank someone for something I do not need. I am self sufficient and have no need of anything from anyone.
Mat 9:12-13, Pro 14:12

Original illustration---Not to boast about, to steal a little glory for myself.

Biblical correction---Boast only in what we know to be true, and pride ourselves on our abilities and liberty.
Pro 14:12,

At the end of the day, you may scream that you are annoyed by this argument, but I submit to you again. The only difference between you and the lost is something "you" have done that they have not done. Is this true or not and if not, lay out the argument?
You may not call that "a boast", but what else can it possibly be before a Holy God?

It cannot be "the Glory of God alone" for god under your system would be offering salvation to everyone wouldn't he? And if He is, and some are saved and others are not, then it must be because those who are saved have "availed themselves, committed themselves, made a better decision, were more spiritually sensitive etc", all of which is a boast over unbelievers, and scripture teaches that no man shall boast before the Lord. (1Co 4:7) Psa 14:3, Isa 64:6

When Calvinists teach "to" the Glory of God alone, we mean it.
We are as corrupt as the unbeliever and have not done a thing to move our souls toward God, nay, rather we have, all of us turned our back upon His grace and have gone our own way, BUT, because He first loved us, and called us with a Holy calling, we have become undone with nothing to recommend us, bringing all of our sins, because He has laid them upon Jesus Christ on our behalf..
We have been enabled to do this freely by His grace alone, having been washed and regenerated and crossing from darkness to light.
Being effectually called, we come because He has revealed His Son in us and to us.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
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Post by _Derek » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:30 pm

Hi Mark,
Sorry for still posting, but since this issue really has raised some interaction, I do think it a point to pursue.
Glad to see you're hanging around. I think you should stick around. Steve wasn't picking on you or any other Calvinists. He said to not do big copy/paste jobs and you did, so he deleted your post like he said he would. Fine. Get over it, and stick around. You're welcome here brother!
Original illustration---If I am broke, and someone offers me twenty bucks to get me to the end of the week,

Biblical correction---I am destitute, totally ignorant of the fact and simply do not care, and a person I hate, offers to get me out of this mess once and for all!
1Co 15:19, Mat 22:11-12, Joh 15:25, Psa 35:19, Rom 1:30, 1Co 2:14, Rom 8:7
Let's look at these scriptures.

1Co 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Agree with this one. Is this a specifically Calvinist verse? How does it prove your point?

Mat 22:11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
Mat 22:12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.


Okay. So they didn't believe. Hence the lack of wedding cloths. Nothing specifically Calvinistic here.


Joh 15:25 "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'

I suppose you are using this to support the notion that all men "hate" God. I don't necessarilly disagree. However, this verse does not support that. First of all, notice the word "fulfil" in the verse, meaning it's something that was done to Christ and His Apostles.

Notice that "they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law"

These could be hints that this is not talking about all men everywhere, but about the first century Jews.

These are people who Christ has "come and spoken to" in vs.22. He had done among them "works which no one had done" in vs. 24.

Psa 35:19 Do not let those who are wrongfully my enemies rejoice over me; Nor let those who hate me without cause wink maliciously.

In it's immediate context, this is about David, and presumably about Saul and his band who were seeking to kill him.

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Finally, a verse that may be speaking generally. To this I would simply say that if I am in a bind and realize my need, there is nothing to say that my heart won't be softened by the kindness of this person I hate who has offered me a way out of my bind by offereing 20 bucks.

Perhaps you'll ask, what is it about me that causes me to accept this offer while another doesn't? I don't know why.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ok. How does this prove your point? If you would read the context, you would see that this is speaking of the Christian Corinthians, not a general statement about the whole human race.
Paul is not saying that they are unsaved, only that they are immature, as the context demonstrates.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

They were not acting as spiritual people, as they should, but as natural, carnal people; the opposite of spiritual.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

A mind set on the things of the flesh is not pleasing to God. This doesn't not mean this person can't repent and do somthing that please God anymore than a "spiritually minded" person cannot do something that displeases God.



Original illustration---is my accepting this gift something to boast about?

Biblical correction---I am fine and need no help and I encourage others to think the same way
Rev 3:17, Luk 12:19, Rom 1:32
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Ok, so the churth at Laodicia was saying these thing about their physical prossessions and Jesus was showing them that spiritually they were bankrupt. Where in the context is this about the whole human race?


Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Luk 12:21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
Luk 12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.


Jesus' point is highlighted. Not sure how it proves what you are saying.


Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Ok. I agree with this one. Do I think that it is universally true of all humans. No.

Original illustration---Of course not. It is humiliating, and is something that would cause me to praise and thank the person who helped me out.

Biblical correction---Why thank someone for something I do not need. I am self sufficient and have no need of anything from anyone.
Mat 9:12-13, Pro 14:12
First of all, it is yet to be shown that mankind universally thinks he's "ok" spiritually.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

If in fact, the man does realize his need spiritually, it would be reason to give thanks.

Original illustration---Not to boast about, to steal a little glory for myself.

Biblical correction---Boast only in what we know to be true, and pride ourselves on our abilities and liberty.
Pro 14:12,
Faith is not something to boast about brother. The bible makes this so clear.

At the end of the day, you may scream that you are annoyed by this argument, but I submit to you again. The only difference between you and the lost is something "you" have done that they have not done. Is this true or not and if not, lay out the argument?
You may not call that "a boast", but what else can it possibly be before a Holy God?
The diffence is indeed something I've done. How that is a boast is beyond me. I don't know why one is convinced and another not.

I don't call it a boast. I call it submission to a king. I call it admitting my guilt before Him and asking His forgivness for my offenses. Trusting Him that what He says is true. If I stand before God on judgement day, I don't think that He will say I am boasting and taking credit for my salvation if I say those things.

"What do you mean you put your faith in me. That's boasting! Even though I tell men everwhere to do it, they are not supposed to actually think that they did it! You're stealing My glory!"

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Faith is not a "work".

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


God bless bro,
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
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Post by _Homer » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:17 pm

Mark,

I too hope you continue to post; it is good to be challenged. As they say, "iron sharpens iron" (Come to think of it, that's not such a good saying. Iron also dulls iron :) . Guess it depends on what you are made of!).

You posted as a proof text:

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing (baptism) of regeneration and renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit,

Seems baptism comes first here. What else would anyone of the Apostles' time have thought "washing" (literally, "bath") referred to?

The idea that Calvinism brings greater glory to God I can not grasp; seems to me to do just the opposite:

1. God is so unlovable that no one could possibly want a relationship with Him without a miraculous intervention.

2. In spite of Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek", the Gospel, God's word, is impotent to save anyone, nor is it credible, absent a miracle.

3. God has "rigged the game" in that the outcome is determined beforehand. No one can come to Him in faith unless He allows it, and those who come to faith can not help but do so. Thus there is no true love for God. Love that is compelled is no love at all.

4. In spite of the fact that men everywhere have a natural, inborn sense of a need for a god or gods, and that nature itself testifies to His existence, and that men seek after him in Buddha, the god of Islam, and any number of other false gods, the One True God is so unbelievable that no one would ever seek Him unless a miracle is done in their heart.

5. John 20:30-31 :

30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

John got it wrong. Regardless of Jesus' teaching, His death on the cross, His resurrection, and the testimony of scripture, men are free to believe on any other god, or gods, except the true one. God will only allow a select few to believe in Him.

I could go on. And the Calvinist believes this glorifies God?
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Post by _tartanarmy » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:40 pm

Hi Mark,

Quote:
Sorry for still posting, but since this issue really has raised some interaction, I do think it a point to pursue.


Glad to see you're hanging around. I think you should stick around. Steve wasn't picking on you or any other Calvinists. He said to not do big copy/paste jobs and you did, so he deleted your post like he said he would. Fine. Get over it, and stick around. You're welcome here brother!
Hi Derek,
A couple of things. First a correction, one that is quite reasonable. When I was deleted, I had been asked in that thread to prove the charge of heresy. Rather than simply state my own defence, which I have done, I posted stuff from other sources, which is a reasonable thing to do when asked to defend the charge I was making, but I was deleted and mocked instead. Be that as it may.

Your last post was most interesting.

I suppose I could go through all of your counter assertions to the passages I quoted, with regard to context etc, but would it be worth it?
It seems most of your response pretty much took all of those passages as not relevant to us today or some such thing.

I really do appreciate you attempting to answer within the contexts etc, but it is so sad to see you then allow your free will presuppositions to cancel out the implications for the Word of God to us today. It is downright dangerous in fact.

Your writing off most of those passages so casually and with your effort at trying to just make them binding or relevant at one particular place or people at one particular time I find less than convincing.

Man, if I used that kind of hermeneutic or you were simply consistent, then when Jesus spoke to the crowds or Paul preached at Mars Hill etc, none of it would be relevant to us today!

But it is this kind of inconsistency I find amazing with Arminians.

If you were defending the Trinity or Deity of Christ or some such thing, you would be reading the Bible the same way as I am and making good deductions etc, but when it comes to this free will libertarian stuff, all consistency flies right off the map.

You also seemed to miss the point in some of those scripture references I posted but it does not really matter, and you know why?

Because you have really answered what I was getting at, even though your response centred on offering counters to the passages I cited.

You simply say, “I don’t know why?”.

That is the answer you give to the question why you have believed and the unbeliever has not believed, and yet you do admit that you have done something that the unbeliever has not done.

Where is the glory and honour due the Lord in that?
Every Christian should know why they have believed and the unbeliever has not believed. The answer is not a mystery nor a secret in scripture bro.

And no, it is not because of something which you have done.
And yes, the answer has nothing to do with boasting.

The problem now is obvious.
If I quote a scripture, you may simply interpret the passage to be only relevant to the immediate hearers, so the remedy, the authority to answer you faithfully, is effectively being stripped away by your hermeneutic. It is very sad and dangerous bro. But here goes anyway,

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,

And just for your own study Derek, if you read the passages previous to 2Th 2:13, you will discover the “why” some believe and others do not believe.

Mark
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Post by _tartanarmy » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:49 pm

Faith is not a "work".
Would faith in the law be a work?

Mark
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Post by _SoaringEagle » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:15 pm

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
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Post by _tartanarmy » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:27 pm

Mark,

I too hope you continue to post; it is good to be challenged. As they say, "iron sharpens iron" (Come to think of it, that's not such a good saying. Iron also dulls iron Smile . Guess it depends on what you are made of!).
Thanks Homer.
You posted as a proof text:

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing (baptism) of regeneration and renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit,

Seems baptism comes first here. What else would anyone of the Apostles' time have thought "washing" (literally, "bath") referred to?
No, even the Jews had been taught about a circumcision made without hands. The passage is teaching spiritual rebirth not merely physical baptism in water. It refers to Baptism, yes, but as a sign of an inward reality, namely regeneration, and the renewal is the abundance of the Holy Spirit that then leads us forth from regeneration into a sanctified life.
The idea that Calvinism brings greater glory to God I can not grasp; seems to me to do just the opposite:

1. God is so unlovable that no one could possibly want a relationship with Him without a miraculous intervention.
This is not what Calvinism teaches nor implies.
How about man is so sinful, he is blind, deaf ,dumb and hates Holiness and the God of Holiness.
2. In spite of Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek", the Gospel, God's word, is impotent to save anyone, nor is it credible, absent a miracle.
Another strange response, especially when one considers that Arminians themselves limit the atonement by actually daring to teach that God does not save any person in particular, but makes salvation possible for all!
I find it simply amazing that “the new birth” is not viewed as a miracle of God!
We even dare to suggest that Physical birth is a miracle, but Spiritual birth is not!
I do not get it.

Scripture even uses the illustrations of miracle to present the New Birth. Think dead bones raised to life in Ezekiel and Lazarus from the tomb as two examples!
3. God has "rigged the game" in that the outcome is determined beforehand. No one can come to Him in faith unless He allows it, and those who come to faith can not help but do so. Thus there is no true love for God. Love that is compelled is no love at all.
You are just denying the Word of God Homer and then misrepresenting what love is. John 6-36-45: 65
Love that is compelled is no love at all? What kind of post-modern nonsense is that?

Those who come to Christ do so because love is drawing them Homer. That is Calvinism.
Arminianism has a god that loves all but leaves the proof of that love to the sinner to respond.

Imagine you love someone enough to not let them walk off a cliff, and you actually stopped them from doing so! Would that count as love that compels?
Imagine such compelling even when you resist that love and still want to walk off the cliff?
Does God just give up? Or does he decide to save you in spite of your rebellion?

Because you believe in free will and a less than Biblical view of the nature of man, and a God who just wants everyone to be saved, you are left defending an impotent God with sentiments, but no power to actually save!
4. In spite of the fact that men everywhere have a natural, inborn sense of a need for a god or gods, and that nature itself testifies to His existence, and that men seek after him in Buddha, the god of Islam, and any number of other false gods, the One True God is so unbelievable that no one would ever seek Him unless a miracle is done in their heart.
I know, isn’t it really amazing Homer? How sinful is humanity?

And they are not seeking after “Him” when they are seeking after these idols Homer. Where do you get that idea brother?
5. John 20:30-31 :

30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

John got it wrong. Regardless of Jesus' teaching, His death on the cross, His resurrection, and the testimony of scripture, men are free to believe on any other god, or gods, except the true one. God will only allow a select few to believe in Him.
John got it right Homer, you have it wrong!
Jesus said,

Joh 17:9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

Mark
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:31 pm

I suppose I could go through all of your counter assertions to the passages I quoted, with regard to context etc, but would it be worth it?
It seems most of your response pretty much took all of those passages as not relevant to us today or some such thing.
I don't think that I did this at all brother. With some (1 Cor. 15:19) I made the simple observation that they were not specifically Calvinistic.

With the wedding feast parable, I stated that there are two ways of interpreting it. As election, (to the calvinist) and faith, (to the Arminian).

With John 15:25, I simply stated what the text said. He is clearly talking about first century Jews. You say that I "wrote off" the passage rendering it unimportant for today, but I hardly did this. Universalizing scripture that was not meant to be interpreted that way is not what I'm into. The correct interpretaiton according to context works better for me, whether I lose a "proof text" for my position or not. Sorry. Same for the quote from the Psalms.

Romans 1:30 I agree that it is universal, though there are other reasonable interpretations. I simply don't interpret it with the presupposition of total depravity. People become fast friends with people they hate all the time without miraculous intervention. I myself have.

I exegeted 1 Corinthians 2:14 according to it's context. It is still very relevant for today. The carnally minded individual will not recieve the things of God today, just like the Corinthians. Very relevant in fact. Just not relevant as a Calvinist proof text!

So simply asserting that I "wrote off" these passages doesn't work brother. Perhaps you should re-read what I said with a bit more of an open mind. And if you are going to take up half of your post to cast such accusations, at least do me the service of showing me how my interpretation is wrong.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,

And just for your own study Derek, if you read the passages previous to 2Th 2:13, you will discover the “why” some believe and others do not believe.
This verse is written to a church (plural you). This does not necessarilly have to be about individual unconditional election, though it could be. This is understood by non-Calvinists to mean "you who are in this catagory", "you who have believed" etc.

you will discover the “why” some believe and others do not believe.
Because they "didn't love the truth"? vs. 10.

God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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