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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:15 pm

CatholicSteve,

So you think baptism came in place of circumcision, and is the "Christian equivalent". Here are a few points for you to ponder (and respond to, if you can):

1. Males only were subjects of circumcision; but males and females are subjects of Christian baptism. "Every male child among you shall be circumcised." The Apostles "baptized both men and women."

2. Circumcision was ordained to be performed on the eighth day--the first day of the second week of every male child. Does your church always use the same day in dispensing the rite of infant baptism?

3. Adult males circumcised themselves. In your church do adult believers baptize themselves?

4. Infant males were circumcised by their own parents. Do Catholic parents baptize their own infant children?

5. Infant and adult servants were circumcised neither neither because of flesh or faith, but as property. Does infant baptism ever occupy this place?

6. Circumcision was not the door into the Jewish church. It was four hundred years older than the Jewish church, and introduced neither Isaac, Ishmael, Esau, nor Jacob into any Jewish or patriarchal church. It never was to any Jew, its peculiar and proper subject, an initiatory rite. They were not circumcised to make them Jews, but because they were Jews. Why, then, call infant baptism an initiatory rite?

7. The qualifications for circumcision were flesh and property. Faith was never propounded, in any case, to a Jew, or his servants, as a qualification for circumcision. But does your church ever say "If you believe with all your heart, you may" (be baptized)?

8. Infant baptism is frequently called a dedicatory rite. Believers may dedicate themselves, but cannot dedicate others to the Lord in a Christian sense. In the Jewish sense, however, infants were dedicated to the Lord. But dedication was never performed by circumcision. The circumcised were afterwards dedicated to the Lord: Numbers viii. 13-21. Why, then, make baptism a dedicatory rite in place of circumcision?

9. Circumcision, requiring neither intelligence, faith, nor any moral qualification, neither did nor could communicate any spiritual blessing. No person ever put on Christ, or professed faith, in the act of circumcision.

10. Circumcision was a visible, appreciable mark, as all signs are, and such was its chief design. Does baptism fill its place in this respect? You might want to consider Paul's epistle to the Ephesians where he indicates the identifying mark the Christian bears is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

11. The duty of circumcision was not personal, but parental. Parents were bound to circumcise their children. The precept ran thus--"Circumcise your children." But in baptism it is personal--"Be baptized, every one of you."

12. The right of a child to circumcision, in no case, depended upon the intelligence, faith, piety, or morality of the parents. Why, then, in substituting for it infant baptism, are its benefits to infants withheld from them, because of the ignorance, impiety, or immorality of their parents? Does infant baptism exactly fill the place of circumcision in this particular? Or even come close?

13. Circumcision was a guarantee of certain temporal benefits to a Jew. Does baptism guaranty any temporal blessing to the subject of it?

14. It was not to be performed in the name of God, nor into the name of any being in heaven or earth. Why, then, on the plea of coming in the place of circumcision, is any infant baptized in or into the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

15. The subject of circumcision was a debtor to the whole law. Is this true of every subject of baptism?

16. Jewish Christians continued to circumcize their infants. Why, if baptism had replaced circumcision?

You alluded to Paul'scomments in Colossians. You overlooked v .13. Consider vs. 11-13:

Colossians 2:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)

11. and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12. having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Paul informs us the subjects of baptism were also raised up with him through faith..... And they were forgiven their transgressions (plural), obviously not Adam's sin. What faith and sins do your infants have, and what faith was exercised and what sins were forgiven in circumcision?

And what of Peter's statement in 1 Peter 3:21:

1 Peter 3:21 (New American Standard Bible)

21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I ask you, does the infant your church baptizes make an appeal to God? How? Did the Jewish infant? Only a believer can do this. And I have it on good authority Peter has as much authority as your Pope! :wink:

I expect, as is your practice, for you to go flying off to something irrelevant to the points I have made instead of responding, but I have hope, otherwise there is no point in continuing.
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__id_1238
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Wow. Its not me with the anger issue!

Post by __id_1238 » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:49 pm

Dear Forum,

Do you see how some posters need to take a course in brevity? Everyone's past complaints to me were "you're all over the board, Steve, its hard to follow you". As you can see, it would be impossible to answer some counter-posts without "going all over the board". Please keep reading about those earliest Christians.

Catholic Steve
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Post by _Rae » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:00 am

Maybe you could take each point that Homer raised (starting with number one) and just post your responses to each point in order. That way you wouldn't have to "go all over the board." You could even just respond to a couple at a time. I would really enjoy reading your thoughts on the questions Homer raised.

Blessings,

Rachel
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Post by __id_1238 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:19 am

Are you kidding? Have you seen some of his previous posts? He can be a raving ___ when it comes to his posts. All emotion, no logic. Tell him to go to the earliest Christian writings and watch him deny any such writings with credibility.

I'd hate to take him out shooting. He's worse than Dick Cheny with his "shotgun" approach. Buck shot questions all over the place! It is easier to simply talk to the "forum". I am getting some great email messages from people that are actually reading the posts and doing some research. The re-posters then prove my point.

One poster actually agreed with some earlier Christian writing and what did they do to that poor guy? They jumped all over him like a back alley fight and he has not been heard from since regarding that post. In my opinion, many of the non-labeled Christians here on this site are so full of venom that they should be bled for their toxic venom so someone can make an anti-serum.

Hooyaa, CatholicSteve
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_Mort_Coyle
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:58 am

Hello, I'm back!

I've been offline for about a week; not by choice: Last week I was monkeying around with my profile and somehow managed to get my account disabled. I think the system must have thought I was a hacker or something! Anyway, it's taken me up until today to get "reactivated", thanks to the sysadmin. So I'm glad to be back.

I'm trying to play catch up here, so please humor me as I backtrack for a moment:

CatholicSteve, your arguments about "labels" failed to persuade. Labels can be useful, but they can also be misused. One example that comes to mind are certain gay-rights advocates who label anyone that challenges their agenda as "homophobic". Their goal, of course, is to cast their opponent in a particular light and frame the debate accordingly. When someone does this, it's usually an indicator that their actual arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny, and so they must resort to other tactics. Besides the need to label their opponents, other tactics of those with weak arguments include taunting, ranting and ad hominem attacks.

Speaking of "ad hominem", you might want to read up on this a bit more. You seem to have completely misunderstood how the term is used in the context of debating. Here's a nice explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I'm sorry, but your need to label me as a "Protestant" is your problem, not mine. I know what I am, what I believe, and why. As I stated in an earlier post, I think of myself in terms of my relationship to Christ, not my relationship with the Catholic church.

You seem to have adopted a new label in the past couple of days, which is "non-labeled Christian". If you want to use that label on me, that's fine, though it seems a bit redundant.

In your most recent posts, which seem to be on a new topic regarding infant baptism as it relates to circumcision (I wonder if it would be better to start a whole new thread on this?), I noticed some assertions that I would like to challenge:
So we know God made a convenantal promise to His chosen people through circumcision
Circumcision was a sign of the covenant, not the means of the covenant.
We also know that God never breaks his promises.
There is a difference between a covenant and a promise. Promises are typically contained within a convenant, but a covenant by its very nature is conditional. It is a contract.
Circumcision is replaced by baptism in the NT where Paul notes this in Col. 2:11–12. In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
This is where we see the leap into illogic which is the result of starting with a flawed premise. Baptism didn't replace circumcision. Circumcision changed from being of the flesh to of the heart. At the risk of being overly graphic, circumcision is the cutting away and discarding of the foreskin. Circumcision of the heart is the cutting away and removal of our sinful nature. Baptism was a sign of that changed (circumcised) heart. Baptism, by the way, was not a new thing with Christianity. Circumcision is now an internal process. Baptism, is the outward expression of what has already occured internally.
In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized.
The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, yet he received the assurance from Jesus, "Today you will be with me in paradise." I wonder if he had to get dunked or sprinkled at the gates of heaven before being allowed to enter? Baptism is not what saves. It is a symbol of what has already occurred in the heart. The Quakers, by the way, don't baptize at all. To quote Elton Trueblood:
"Baptism means the immersion of a person's whole being in the love of Christ. It is in this sense that Quakers, when they have understood their own position, have always maintained that their attitude to baptism is a wholly affirmative one. Quakers believe in baptism with all their hearts. They believe in baptism so much that they refuse to be sidetracked by arguments about the right way to perform an ecclesiatstical or priestly function.

Since the physical ceremony is neither necessary nor sufficient, it is not something to be denounced, and , if it is helpful for any to dramatize their faith, this certainly does no harm. All that is harmful is a magical conception or efficacy. There are, unfortunately, still a number of alleged Christians who contend that a soul is lost eternally if physical baptism is not administered. The evidence that they think in this fashion is shown by the extremes to which they will go in order to see to it that a newborn baby is baptized, when the life of the child is threatened. Though the people who engage in these frantic efforts, on such occasions, probably have not bothered to think through their position, it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the theology implicit in the act is monstrous. It means, they must claim, that the Living God is so lacking in compassion that He will reject an unconscious baby for lack of a ceremonial performance. If God is like that, it follows that He is not even remotely like Jesus Christ, and the whole Christian position is thereby undermined. If salvation is of such a nature that it can be determinded by anything as trivial as a few drops of water, then the entire revelation of Christ has been in vain. Furthermore, it follows that Christ was mistaken when He spoke to the the on the cross. It is absurditites of this kind that Quakers feel bound to reject."
I would tend to agree with them. Baptism is not efficacious for salvation. It is simply an act which acknowledges what has already taken place in the heart.
If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul's reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.
Paul's reference to baptism has absolutely nothing to do with infant baptism. Paul is speaking to adults. The entire context of Colossians 2 & 3 is how to live as followers of Jesus. It is about making Godly choices.
Even though Catholic Christians believe in adults being baptized with a knowledge of God's saving Grace, we also accept that children can be baptized without any outward knowledge/display of God's Grace.
Then you have turned baptism into a magical act; a physical act which brings a spiritual payoff. Do you really think that God is so hung up on our performance of rituals?
We see this with sin in scripture, too. Some will say you must admit of your sin to be freed of it, but scripture is very descriptive that not everyone has to say/do anything but rather the faith of others can free you of sin. In Luke 5:20 "When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." we see that Jesus saw THEIR faith and then said YOUR (paralyzed man) sins are forgiven.
Wait a minute. Aren't you contradicting your earlier assertions that forgiveness must always be preceded by repentence? You can't have it both ways. If you are now claiming that Jesus forgave the paralytic because of the faith of his friends, then aren't you going against Catholic dogma regarding the necessity of contrition before forgiveness can be given?

Also, the assumption of cause and effect in Jesus seeing the faith of the friends and then forgiving the paralytic is just that: an assumption. Jesus saw the faith of the paralytic's friends (by their actions) but is that what caused Him to forgive and heal the man? If the man had just been lying there already, would Jesus have not been able to forgive and heal him?

Circumcision in the OT signalled that the baby was brought into the covenant people. They would raise and teach the child God's Torah. As the child reached the age of accountability (13 for boys, 12 for girls according to Jewish tradition) it would become their individual responsibility to keep covenant. This idea of the individual's responsibility in keeping covenant is what Paul is on about in Colossians 2 & 3.

By the way, since you are equating OT physical circumcision with NT baptism, where in the OT does it state that circumcision was necessary for salvation?

So, we do seem to be ranging all over the board here. CatholicSteve, do you wish to continue in this vein regarding baptism or would you rather go back to the previous topics in this thread?
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:04 am

Ooh, I just posted and then saw this:
One poster actually agreed with some earlier Christian writing and what did they do to that poor guy? They jumped all over him like a back alley fight and he has not been heard from since regarding that post. In my opinion, many of the non-labeled Christians here on this site are so full of venom that they should be bled for their toxic venom so someone can make an anti-serum.
I hope you weren't referring to me, as I certainly never felt like anyone jumped all over me. Maybe you meant someone else, but I still can't recall anyone being "jumped all over" like a "back alley fight". 99% of the people who post on this forum are very gracious and thoughtful and, well, Christian. That's what makes the other 1% stick out so much.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:13 am

Ooh, one more thing (sorry, I've been offline for a week so I'm getting warmed back up!):

CatholicSteve, for your edification, here is textbook example of the ad hominem attack:
Question: Maybe you could take each point that Homer raised (starting with number one) and just post your responses to each point in order. That way you wouldn't have to "go all over the board." You could even just respond to a couple at a time. I would really enjoy reading your thoughts on the questions Homer raised.

Answer: Are you kidding? Have you seen some of his previous posts? He can be a raving ___ when it comes to his posts. All emotion, no logic. Tell him to go to the earliest Christian writings and watch him deny any such writings with credibility. I'd hate to take him out shooting. He's worse than Dick Cheny with his "shotgun" approach. Buck shot questions all over the place!
Can you see it? Rather than address any of the actual points that Homer brought up, you chose instead to respond by attacking him. All this does is confirm that you are unable to provide substantive, rational arguments to support your positions and counter his.
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Stop drinking so much coffee

Post by __id_1238 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:36 am

Wow, all that rhetorical energy and not one bit spent researching the earliest Christian writings. Are you seeing this Forum readers?

Peace out, Catholic Steve
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Re: Stop drinking so much coffee

Post by _schoel » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:06 am

CatholicSteve wrote:Wow, all that rhetorical energy and not one bit spent researching the earliest Christian writings. Are you seeing this Forum readers?
:roll:

Seems a bit like the kettle calling the pot black...

You haven't responded to any questions raised by Mort_Coyle.
The argument you seemed glued to involves telling people to go read early Christian sources. It would seem that Mort_Coyle and Homer have (from their previous responses to you) and haven't seen what you have. So there must be a better way to make your argument rather than a vague reference to the writings of the Christian fathers.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:08 am

Actually, I've researched the early church fathers quite a bit and I think I've actually quoted from them quite a bit more in this thread than you have.

Let me ask you another question. This one is very simple. According to Catholic doctrine, what happens to a baby if it dies and has not been baptized? Does it go to Heaven or Hell?
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