those who bless Israel are blessed....

[Guest]

Matt, very good observation. In order to do my small part in that area of the world I am a monthly supporter of a Christian Childrens Home located in Ramallah. It is a place where orphaned, homeless, under fed children are taken care of in a christ-like atmosphere. They have been doing some fabulous work inspite of the tensions and threats to their homeland.

If anyone would like to check them out you can do a google search for:
Ramallah Christian Outreach Home of New Life

[_Rick_C]

Allyn,

Not long ago I was out of work...and almost out of money and food. I got some financial help from a Christian...not having asked ask for it....

Now, I'm getting hired at the job I've gotten since (going full-time from being a 'temp' starting Monday) . . . and will have some extra money to "freely you received: freely give." Ramallah Christian Outreach Home of New Life is where I'm sending it, Praise the Lord!

Those people are beautiful, Allyn!
I appreciate your google to them, bro!

Share with God's people who are in need (Ro 12:13a, NIV).
In Christ,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

Matt,

Matt, very good observation.

Yes, and the Bible tells us who we should pray for and why:

1 Timothy 2 (NKJV)
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Every political and/or governmental authority, all men, women, and children....
...that we, and they, may be saved, Amen.

[Guest]

We all have read that passage but here is my question. Is it possible that the social ills, economic ills and foreign affair problems for the US are a direct result of Gods judgment (curse) on the US for supporting anti-christ israel over the true Israel the Chruch?

Jim

Could it be possible that many Christians who see Israel as God's chosen people today are actually watching and/or supporting the anti-Christ?

Even if Israel grows into a great and powerful nation, always at war and winning, could this not also be what is described in Revelation:

Rev 13:3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?"
Rev 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
Rev 13:6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation


Israel, who seems to have received a mortal wound in 70AD miraculously is revived, causing the world to marvel.

Have we not heard "Who is like Israel" "Who can make war with her"? (6 Day war)

Are not many people "following" Israel? Even though they are in no Biblical sense people that should be followed but rather converted?

Are not people labeled with a "mark" for speaking against Israel? (anti-semetic)

Has Israel been given authority that it didn't have for a long time? Does it not make war with the saints (and non-saints)?

I wonder how many people would follow Israel if they build a temple an call fire down from heaven in the presence of men?

Just some ramblings of mine so I hope no one takes this too seriously. I sometimes wonder if Israel isn't a "test" of the faithfulness of Christians. Are people God's people by name only or do their actions have anything to do with determining this?

[Guest]

Sean,

Those are excellent ramblings.

"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." 1John 2:22 (NASB)

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

Lazarus43,
Thanks for providing that Scripture reminder. Fits well with this topic.


Sean,
I would really like to read more of your thoughts on this. I am inclined to think this is a good possibility but I need to read how the 42 months is worked out.

[_Rick_C]

Sean,

Have you heard Steve's lectures on Revelation and the series on: What are we to make of Israel? If not, I recommend them. Steve does the usual, gives various views, then his. I don't fully agree with everything Steve says, but do "generally" (am re-listening to Rev 12-13 right now)

Also, if you could possibly repost what you are "serious" about (I can't tell which?)...I might join back in on the thread...(depends, I'll check back later)....
Rick

Re: 1 John 2:22.
This verse is about anyone (an individual), whether Gentile or Jew. Anti-christs exist anywhere and are not specific to any certain nationality, ethnic or racial group, or country. Same thing with Christians.

We are to called & commissioned to be a blessing to all nations (including modern day Israel) with the Good News about Jesus, as far as that goes....
(out)

[Guest]

Lazarus43,
Thanks for providing that Scripture reminder. Fits well with this topic.


Sean,
I would really like to read more of your thoughts on this. I am inclined to think this is a good possibility but I need to read how the 42 months is worked out.

Don't know about how to work the 42 months in there. Maybe it speaks of the church age as a whole and the power of satan shows itself through many faces during this age (Roman Catholic Church in the past, Islam, Hitler, "Israel", even the US).

My concern is the allure of modern Israel on the world in general, but even more so is it's effect on Christianity. If modern Christians follow a Christ rejecting, and law breaking nation and still call them "God's elect" (contrary to scripture) then how is this not a modern delusion that draws people to practically follow an anti-Christ? Did not Paul speak against this in Galatians and other places?

I'm not wise enough of myself to know where the line is between a mere difference in eschatology and a rejection of the truth. The easy answer seems to be to preach the gospel to all men.

[_Rick_C]

Sean,

My concern is the allure of modern Israel on the world in general, but even more so is it's effect on Christianity. If modern Christians follow a Christ rejecting, and law breaking nation and still call them "God's elect" (contrary to scripture) then how is this not a modern delusion that draws people to practically follow an anti-Christ? Did not Paul speak against this in Galatians and other places?

I'm not sure what you mean with, "My concern is the allure of modern Israel on the world in general"....

Dispensational Christianity has a seriously damaging effect on how Christianity is perceived. To wit, through its heresy Islamic fundamentalists wrongly identify Christianity as believing "Israel owns the land as God's Chosen People."

The dispensationalists say, "The Palestinians are on God's property---and need to surrender it to Israel" --- and this is, in NO SENSE of meaning, the Gospel of Jesus Christ in any way, shape, or form.

Dispensationalism is partially responsible for terrorism as many, if not most, Islamic fundamentalists are fully convinced that this is the actual teaching of Christianity.

How is it "good news" in any way, to anyone, they live in the wrong place? Did Paul or the Lord Jesus Christ Himself ever insist on relocation for salvation? Of course not, this is absurd!!! Where anyone lives has nothing whatever to do with their salvation AT ALL, not by any the stretch of the imagination.

"Hey Palestinians, Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life! Oh, and by the way, you need to give up your house also. How's that? He'll have many mansions for you in heaven. Sound doable to you?" HERESY! (and I thank the Lord I've stopped cussing)........

Let's not confuse politics with sound theology. Modern Israel's (as well as the Palestinians') right to exist and all of the problems involved are intricate and delicate political issues (of which religion is a major factor).

I better go to bed...but I've gotten riled up!
Rick
(out fersure this time, if the Lord will help me)!

P.S. Well.......nevermind.......God bless.

[_Rick_C]

Sean,

You wrote:

1. My concern is the allure of modern Israel on the world in general, but even more so is it's effect on Christianity.

2. If modern Christians follow a Christ rejecting, and law breaking nation and still call them "God's elect" (contrary to scripture) then how is this not a modern delusion that draws people to practically follow an anti-Christ?

3. Did not Paul speak against this in Galatians and other places?

1. The Middle East is obviously a region of world-wide concern, I agree. Personally, I don't see Israel's existence, and the problems of the region, as having an effect on Christianity, if by "Christianity" you mean the Church (because Jesus is The Sovereign Lord).

2. Do you know of any nation that hasn't broken God's Laws?

Do you know of a nation that has accepted Christ?

Dispensationalist Christians (if you meant them?) "follow" heretical theology. If their supporting Israel financially, etc., could be seen as "following" them (?), then you might have a point.

Dispensational theology is a modern delusion.
I'm not sure what you mean by "follow an anti-Christ." I don't think dispensationalists are about to convert to another religion---though their religion strongly resembles (Jewish) Zionism -- that is, in terms of those dispensationalists who are (Christian) Zionists....and many are, at least in principle.

3. Gal 1, RYLT:
6 I wonder that you are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news; 7 that is not another, except there be certain who are troubling you, and wishing to pervert the good news of the Christ; 8 but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- accursed let him be! 9 as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what you did receive -- accursed let him be! 10 for now men do I persuade, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if yet men I did please -- Christ's servant I should not be.

Though the dispensationalists are heretical...they have not gone so far as the Galatians (by circumcising themselves). I cannot judge their souls but the dispensational gospel is NOT fully compatible with Paul's.......

I pray they will come around. Speaking from experience; my family are dispensationalists. I have cringed inside -- it was like a thorn in my flesh -- when I've heard them say VERY HATEFUL things against Palestinians... and "Israel is always right. They own the land and should get it however they can." This grieved me sooooooo deeply....

My family and I agreed to not discuss this any more about 3 years ago (we had some very strong disagreements). Yet from time to time, I've had the chance to explain things from Romans 9-11 to them (for example)...and some of them may be coming around...I don't know.

One thing has definitely helped. Letting them know that many Palestinians -- and some Israelis -- are Christians! (which has led them to look at things somewhat differently, it seems), I pray.

Allyn, thanks again for your post about Pastor Kakish's ministry. I plan to share it with my family, brother! (Well, I may mention I sent some money and see how they respond...I won't push it)...Could cause problems, unfortunately.
In Christ,
Rick