Dear Forum Readers,
Whether intentional or simply a computer glitch, I have been banned/blocked from the Forum, so I had to go about reconfiguring my computer to get on. Therefore, I may be banned again and may not get on for awhile. If this is the case, I wanted to start this topic …the age of reason/discernment.
Just what is the age of reason, the age of discernment? From what I learned when I was an Evangelical Christian (14+ years), it was that chronological age that you had to have to have the ability to understand God and the gift of Grace. Therefore, it gave this young individual the ability to “accept” Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, ie, they were “saved”.
Since I have yet to meet any Evangelical Christians on this site, maybe I will have to wait because I think the non-labeled Christians here may not understand the age of reason/discernment. I would like to know if my definition is pretty much on the money or is there a variant that makes more sense.
If there is this “age” then I would like to know if this is a scriptural age? If so, where is that in scripture? If not and it is simply “inferred” then where is that in scripture? If this can not be found/inferred in scripture than it can only be a Christian tradition, so when can that tradition be found in early Christian writings.
Christ’s Peace,
Catholic Steve
Age of Reason...Age of Discernment?
Age of Reason...Age of Discernment?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Just want to throw this out...you're coming off a bit paranoid with the "banned" stuff. A while back I had trouble getting in, but I figured it was a glitch. Since then, I don't have "login automatically" on, and don't have any trouble.
Anyway, there's a trace of this in Isaiah 7, regarding the "Virgin shall conceive" prophecy. Here's an excerpt:
That's all I've got.
-Seth
Anyway, there's a trace of this in Isaiah 7, regarding the "Virgin shall conceive" prophecy. Here's an excerpt:
On the surface (in context with chapter 8), this is a relatively short-term prophecy, so that'd put the "age of reason" at a few years. Or so it would seem. But it's far from clear what the actual "age" would be.Isaiah 7:16 (NKJV) wrote:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
That's all I've got.
-Seth
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Catholic Steve wrote:
Or is "Evangelical Christian" another one of your labels? If you can't label us any other way, you label us as "Non-labelled Christians". Is it really necessary to label everyone and put him in a box? Does this process put you at ease, with the feeling that you've got everyone's number? err... rather everyone's label? Once you've categorized them, does that mean you know what to do with them? If they have the same label, are they pretty much alike? Does it help you to discern whether or not they are Catholics? Whether or not they are true Christians? Whether or not they have the truth? Whether or not they are following the true doctrine?
Why not forget your labels, and see whether there is any basis for fellowship with others on the basis of whether or not they are true disciples of Christ?
How do you know whether or not the Christians on this site are evangelical?Since I have yet to meet any Evangelical Christians on this site...
Or is "Evangelical Christian" another one of your labels? If you can't label us any other way, you label us as "Non-labelled Christians". Is it really necessary to label everyone and put him in a box? Does this process put you at ease, with the feeling that you've got everyone's number? err... rather everyone's label? Once you've categorized them, does that mean you know what to do with them? If they have the same label, are they pretty much alike? Does it help you to discern whether or not they are Catholics? Whether or not they are true Christians? Whether or not they have the truth? Whether or not they are following the true doctrine?
Why not forget your labels, and see whether there is any basis for fellowship with others on the basis of whether or not they are true disciples of Christ?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
CS-
i have always felt that the "age of accountability" (if this is what you mean) is the age at which God holds a person accountable for rejecting christ. it varies with each person, depending on various factors. i dont think it is spelled out in the Bible; I just think it follows from the fact that God is a just God. i guess you can call me evangelical if you want to, if you mean a non-catholic, non-liberal protestant.
TK
i have always felt that the "age of accountability" (if this is what you mean) is the age at which God holds a person accountable for rejecting christ. it varies with each person, depending on various factors. i dont think it is spelled out in the Bible; I just think it follows from the fact that God is a just God. i guess you can call me evangelical if you want to, if you mean a non-catholic, non-liberal protestant.
TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
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_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't think there is a set age at which one becomes suddenly accountable for their sins or for accepting/rejecting Christ. Obviously, the longer one lives, the more opportunities there are for sin. A baby has little or no volition, so it's hard to think of it as being accountable. We as adults don't expect accountable behavior from a baby. As a child grows, it begins to learn right from wrong and begins to be held accountable. There are consequences for bad behavior, and they change as the child matures. Just as growth is a process, accountability is a process, not an event.
Popular Jewish tradition holds that the age of accountability for boys is 13 and for girls is 12, hence the Bar/Bat Mitzvah. This belief appears to go back to the 1st century. The responsibility for transgressions made prior to 13/12 falls upon the parents. This Jewish tradition is probably where the notion of an "age of reason" among some Christians originates from.
Interestingly, some people believe that the age of accountability is 20, based on Exodus 30:14 and Numbers 14:29.
What's amazing to me is that Jesus said, of the adults who were crucifying Him, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing." It seems He didn't hold them accountable.
Popular Jewish tradition holds that the age of accountability for boys is 13 and for girls is 12, hence the Bar/Bat Mitzvah. This belief appears to go back to the 1st century. The responsibility for transgressions made prior to 13/12 falls upon the parents. This Jewish tradition is probably where the notion of an "age of reason" among some Christians originates from.
Interestingly, some people believe that the age of accountability is 20, based on Exodus 30:14 and Numbers 14:29.
What's amazing to me is that Jesus said, of the adults who were crucifying Him, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing." It seems He didn't hold them accountable.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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There are a number of verses that infer that there is an age of accountability , before which an infant may not know good from evil.
An example:
"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it" (Deuteronomy 1:39).
This is reflected in Catholic doctrine in the following:
On completion of the seventh year a minor is presumed to have the use of reason (canon 97 §2 of the Code of Canon Law), but mental retardation or insanity could prevent some individuals from ever reaching it. Children under the age of reason and the mentally handicapped are sometimes called "innocents" because of their inability to commit sins: even if their actions are objectively sinful, they lack capacity for subjective guilt.
Canon 989, on the sacrament of Penance, also mentions the age of discretion: "All the faithful who have reached the age of discretion are bound faithfully to confess their grave sins at least once a year."
Confirmation (except in danger of death) may be lawfully conferred only on a person who has the use of reason (canon 889 §2), and Holy Communion may be administered to children only if "they have sufficient knowledge and (are) accurately prepared, so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
As for the Bar Mitzvah , Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments.
It is not unreasonable to see that the knowledge of right and wrong are developed with age , or that before some point a child would not be held responsible for obedience to the Law. However the Law only condemns , it doesn't save. Even apart from original sin , the accountability for sin is irrelevant to salvation.
Gal. 3:24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
The question should be , when does faith begin?
Thomas
An example:
"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it" (Deuteronomy 1:39).
This is reflected in Catholic doctrine in the following:
On completion of the seventh year a minor is presumed to have the use of reason (canon 97 §2 of the Code of Canon Law), but mental retardation or insanity could prevent some individuals from ever reaching it. Children under the age of reason and the mentally handicapped are sometimes called "innocents" because of their inability to commit sins: even if their actions are objectively sinful, they lack capacity for subjective guilt.
Canon 989, on the sacrament of Penance, also mentions the age of discretion: "All the faithful who have reached the age of discretion are bound faithfully to confess their grave sins at least once a year."
Confirmation (except in danger of death) may be lawfully conferred only on a person who has the use of reason (canon 889 §2), and Holy Communion may be administered to children only if "they have sufficient knowledge and (are) accurately prepared, so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
As for the Bar Mitzvah , Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments.
It is not unreasonable to see that the knowledge of right and wrong are developed with age , or that before some point a child would not be held responsible for obedience to the Law. However the Law only condemns , it doesn't save. Even apart from original sin , the accountability for sin is irrelevant to salvation.
Gal. 3:24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
The question should be , when does faith begin?
Thomas
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Banned?
Me paranoid? "What me worry?" All I know is that my computer said "You have been banned". I will answer some of the comments later but I just got back from a trip and saw I have been un-banned or computer corrected.
I just wanted to say this .... DO NOT, NEVER GO SEE....EASTERN PROMISES! It was rated R but it should have been X. Please no kids/teenagers/wives to that.
Russian mafia stuff but other stuff that could have been easily left out....ugly, nasty show. Had the ability to be a quality show but failed miserably.
Catholic Steve
I just wanted to say this .... DO NOT, NEVER GO SEE....EASTERN PROMISES! It was rated R but it should have been X. Please no kids/teenagers/wives to that.
Russian mafia stuff but other stuff that could have been easily left out....ugly, nasty show. Had the ability to be a quality show but failed miserably.
Catholic Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
And before we answer that, we should probably define what faith is.The question should be , when does faith begin?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Mort:
Here is a classic definition of saving faith:
"the act of the intellect assenting to a Divine truth owing to the movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God" (St. Thomas Aquinas, II-II, Q. iv, a. 2).
That is , that although it works upon the intellect to create assent , it is a gift from God. It is not something learned.
Thomas
Here is a classic definition of saving faith:
"the act of the intellect assenting to a Divine truth owing to the movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God" (St. Thomas Aquinas, II-II, Q. iv, a. 2).
That is , that although it works upon the intellect to create assent , it is a gift from God. It is not something learned.
Thomas
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CatholicSteve:
I think it safe to say that all churches believe in an *age of reason , discernment , accountability*. The difference is in the significance and application.
In the Catholic , Lutheran , etc. application , this *age* is tied in with the age of catacism , confirmation and receiving the Eucharist. It is obvious that it is necessary for a person to be able to reason in order to do the above , however the significance of reason is not closely tied in to salvation. Salvation is seen an an act of God's Grace and not an act of a person's reasoning , it is given not accepted.
psalm 22
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
I doubt that the author of this remembered being brought out of the womb , it is more a statement meaning that he cannot remember a time before which he did not believe. This is also the reaction many of believers to the question "when were you saved ?". Never having to wait until they are old enough to make a decision , they have been saved since before they can remember. The requirement for salvation being belief and not acceptance or accountability.
Thomas
I think it safe to say that all churches believe in an *age of reason , discernment , accountability*. The difference is in the significance and application.
In the Catholic , Lutheran , etc. application , this *age* is tied in with the age of catacism , confirmation and receiving the Eucharist. It is obvious that it is necessary for a person to be able to reason in order to do the above , however the significance of reason is not closely tied in to salvation. Salvation is seen an an act of God's Grace and not an act of a person's reasoning , it is given not accepted.
psalm 22
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
I doubt that the author of this remembered being brought out of the womb , it is more a statement meaning that he cannot remember a time before which he did not believe. This is also the reaction many of believers to the question "when were you saved ?". Never having to wait until they are old enough to make a decision , they have been saved since before they can remember. The requirement for salvation being belief and not acceptance or accountability.
Thomas
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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