"monergism" and "synergism"

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:30 am

Greetings,
Jess wrote:On another note, I would appreciate feedback on how others would interpret John 10:26 and 28 that Mark mentioned above. My own thought is that he should have included verse 27, which lies between the two he mentioned:

26 "But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"
28 "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no
one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Only those who "hear" Christ's voice can be His sheep. Mark assumed that Christ's sheep were eternally chosen from the beginning. Verse 27 seems to suggest that we have a role in becoming His sheep, ie. responding to His voice. (also John 10:3)
The people Jesus was speaking to (in this entire section) heard His voice. But did they all hearken to Him and believe?

John 10, NKJV (context)
19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”
21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”


22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

40 And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptizing at first, and there He stayed. 41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke about this Man were true.” 42 And many believed in Him there.


The Jews of verse 21 seemed to be very close to believing and could be the same people of verses 41/42; who saw Jesus' good works, heard His words, took them to heart, (and believed in Him). The others saw and heard the very same things---but didn't believe in Him. (Refutation of the Calvinistic idea that sinners --- who are not "elect," according to the Calvinistic system -- cannot hear Christ/God. Jesus spoke to them all---this chapter plainly states they ALL HEARD HIM). But did they all heed His word? No.

26 "But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
Jesus had already told them He was the Christ and performed miracles to attest to it---and they had already dis-believed, v. 25.

Nothing is said (in v. 26) about these people as to if they had been predestined or elected (in any Calvinistic sense of meaning). Jesus confronts them regarding their current status of unbelief as they heard His very words.

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"
Jesus explains what His disciples do: They hearken to Him (His voice/teaching), come to know Him, and follow Him. The sense of this verse is "If you are listening now and want to hear more" (and is essentially an invitation to become a disciple). Note, it is in the present tense.

28 "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
The Lord tells of eternal life to everyone within the range of His voice and that no external human or spiritual power will be able to take His disciples from Him. He is preaching the Gospel of the Eternal Kingdom; that they will be secure in Him, in His hand. Nothing here about "Eternal Security" or the Perseverance of the Saints. The "they" of this verse are collective; the fold of those who believe ("my sheep"). Following the Good Shepard is in the present tense, v. 27. Of course, individual sheep can stray from the flock at a future time for various reasons. However, v. 28 does not address that particular issue. Jesus gives assurance that no OUTSIDE force, power, person, or persons can snatch His sheep from Him: Nothing more, and nothing less is said here.

Re: 2 Calls
I don't think there's a distinction between responding to the call to "get saved" (Jesus as Savior) and the concurrent call to "do service" (Jesus as Lord). Not according to the Scriptures, imo. Sure, we're called to be saved from Hell and go to Heaven...but that's just part of the picture ("entry level," ff. .........(following Him in service).

An insomniac's imo'Zzzzzzzzzzzz, Goodnight! :wink:
How did I do?
Rick
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:43 am

Hello Steve,

I was listening to your broadcast yesterday. You were commenting on a womans question regarding 'eternal security' I believe. (I'll have to go to the archives and listen closer. I am a route man and in and out of my truck, so I couldn't catch all of what you said to her.) In the light of John's testimony in John 10: 26-28; you said to this woman that you didn't believe in eternal security. I believe you made a reference to Heb.6 as a proof text. Would you care to elaborate?

Thanks in advance,
In Jesus,
Bob
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:59 am

Hey Rick,

So I take it you also do not believe in 'eternal security'? Now, I have no desire to defend Calvinisims views on the issue. I have "no dog in the hunt". I do believe in 'eternal security'. But by saying this, I also believe that not every person who names the name of Jesus will be beneficiaries of His salvation. I do not believe in the Calvinists belief on 'election' quite the same way they do either.
Gotta go....

In Jesus,
Bob
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:13 pm

Bob,

"They" (Christ's sheep, the Church) are safe in Christ from external forces. John 10:28 is about the corporate protection of the Church from these forces. If individual sheep wander away -- and people do for many reasons -- it isn't because God didn't provide their protection.

I believe individual believers are "forever safe" as they continue to abide in Christ (stay current believers). The Bible makes no promises to former believers except judgment. (So I do believe in so-called 'eternal security' but not like Calvinists).

Listen to Steve's Eternal Security debate...exactly how I believe (great job, Steve)!

How many sub-topics we gonna get on this thread by now, lol?
Rick :wink:
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:48 pm

Rick,

I think we are in general agreement. The topic is connected in the sense that our 'eternal security' as viewed from God's vantage point is monergistic. To say otherwise, seems to me to say that our salvation is entirely dependant upon our staying in the relationship apart from what God does. The implication IMO, if a true believer "falls, fails, or is entangled by some stubborn sin in his life, salvation can be lost. If this is true, then the idea implies that all the preceding work of the Father, Son and Spirit in securing a belivers salvation could be "undone". "Sheep" by nature are prone to wander off. The Good Shepherd sometimes has to leave the flock to bring back the "strays". I agree that there are certain conditions to salvation. I also agree, to be outside of a relationship in Christ, one is not only not saved, but lost.

I don't have the Bible in front of me at the moment, but it seems to me that there are three main reasons salvation is either denied or potentially lost. 1) Attributing the works of Christ as from Satan. 2) justification by works 3) returning to the sacrificial system as a means of atonement; (Heb 6 comes to mind). I am sure there are more you can think of.

Gotta go....
Peace
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Post by _Rick_C » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:55 am

Bob,

Wait!
I just realized something: John 10:41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke about this Man were true.” 42 And many believed in Him there.

Namely, it doesn't say who these 'many' people were. They could have been anyone Jesus had spoken to in the entire chapter. The Bible doesn't say....But in one place it does tell of a man who approved of the stoning one of Christ's followers: Saul. Who's to say that some the 'stone throwers' in John 10 didn't believe in v. 42? Only God knows who they were...and anything else is pure speculation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, Bob, you wrote:
1. I think we are in general agreement.

2. The topic is connected in the sense that our 'eternal security' as viewed from God's vantage point is monergistic.

3. To say otherwise, seems to me to say that our salvation is entirely dependant upon our staying in the relationship apart from what God does.

4. The implication IMO, if a true believer "falls, fails, or is entangled by some stubborn sin in his life, salvation can be lost.

5. If this is true, then the idea implies that all the preceding work of the Father, Son and Spirit in securing a belivers salvation could be "undone".


1. OK

2. I don't think about God, theology, and the Bible, etc., in terms of either "monergism" or "synergism"...that's what Calvinists do. But if you meant that God is "Who does the ultimate keeping-work" (from His point of view alone); I suppose I could go along with that. I mean, God does what only He can do. I'm positive He has "kept me safe" when no human power could have helped (many, many times over). But since I don't think like a Calvinist...I was in on it too (as the subject of His actions on my behalf). Make sense?

3. I'm not following you here. Like I posted above; my relationship with God is, has been, and I expect it to continue as, a 2-way relationship (it's exactly like how you come to know and get on with people)...to me.

4. Yes, the Bible supports this (and I can't find my pocket NT) but verses, chapters, and books abound to confirm this.

5. I might disagree(?).
The Church (Christ's collective fold of His sheep) is forever safe under His care and protection. The work of the Lord Jesus secures this. If you mean I could "undo" my faith? and lose my relationship with God? Yes, anyone can end any relationship, if they so choose. -"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny himself" 2 Ti 2:13 (This verse has several interpretations. I see it as: When or if I were to become faithless (in an "am" faithless state, losing my faith)---God will remain faithful and Who He is. And I can return to Him any time because I know He is THERE), Amen!

And to quell any charges of Pelagianism that anyone reading might have (not you, Bob): God "called" me at least a thousand times, maybe many more, over a period of about 18 years. I could have come back to Him at any time but refused, resisting the Holy Spirit of God....

The Lord is Good!
(now you say "When?")....When?
ALL THE TIME!

Anyways, it seems we agree on most of this stuff, I guess.... :wink:
Take care,
Rick

P.S. Bonus verses: 2 Timothy, RYLT (Revised Young's Literal Translation)
2:11 Stedfast {faithful} [is] the word: For if we died together -- we also shall live together; 2:12 if we do endure together -- we shall also reign together; if we deny [him], he also shall deny us; 2:13 if we are not stedfast {faithful}, he remains stedfast {faithful}; to deny himself he is not able.
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