Moyers: Hagee, CUFI, and an interview

[_Rick_C]

Greetings,

Had I known that the featured topic of:
Bill Moyers Journal:
Christians United For Israel (John Hagee),
plus an interview
...was going to be last evening (Oct. 5, 2007) I would have posted this earlier!!! (link is to text or watch the program).

First, there is a report about John Hagee and CUFI (Christians United For Israel): Excerpts from the recent CUFI rally, Hagee's sermons, and comments from an interview with Hagee are presented.

Then Moyers interviews:

BILL MOYERS: How many people belong to Christians United for Israel? Well, they say they have the support of 50,000 pastors and their congregations. And that would be no mean number. Let's talk further now with two men who follow closely relations between American Christians and Israel.

Rabbi Michael Lerner is the editor of the widely read and quoted Tikkun magazine, which he founded in 1986 as a journal of liberal and progressive Jewish thought. He holds doctorates in both philosophy and clinical psychology and has written 11 books, including JEWISH RENEWAL, SPIRIT MATTERS, and his most recent, THE LEFT HAND OF GOD.

Dr. Timothy Weber is himself an evangelical Christian. Once a Baptist now a Presbyterian, a teacher and historian of religion. He taught at Denver Seminary and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, among other schools. He's known as an innovator in graduate theological education and the author of LIVING IN THE SHADOW OF THE SECOND COMING and this one, On the ROAD TO ARMAGEDDON: HOW EVANGELICALS BECAME ISRAEL'S BEST FRIEND. Welcome to you both.

alternate link: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052 ... file2.html
(see CUFI link there also)

I can't recommend reading or watching this particular Bill Moyers Journal enough. At first I thought Weber was a dispensationalist but was very glad to find he isn't!

Though the program is balanced in describing dispensationalism as a theology that only about 1/3 of 'evangelicals' accept...it would have been excellent to have N.T. Wright or Steve Gregg on this program to provide "non-dispensationalist" views!

Dispensationalism was somewhat exposed but what the Bible really says about Israel didn't come up; just that not all 'evangelical' Christians in the USA are dispensationalists of the Hagee/CUFI variety.

I made this same post in the Announcements section and am posting it here for further discussion.

In Christ,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

My vote was: The above, plus take some form of social action against it.

1. Pray this false teaching will stop
Asking God that this false teaching will stop seems odd in a way. Why I say this is that this phenomenon has always been around and probably always will be: "newspaper theology" or otherwise, new false predictions of 'Bible prophecy' that have happened since the Lord left earth; there's a long list of this.

2. Pray, and expose this false teaching on the internet and to people I know
I've done all three (one right now). As an aside, this past week I mentioned to a family member who is dispensationalist that I hope to send some money to Pastor Kakish's Home (see below) as I have a decent paying job now. This "news" wasn't very well received so I immediately changed the topic.....

3. The above, plus take some form of social action against it.
At one time I had the conviction of 'not darkening the door of a church that teaches dispensationalism' --- and kept it for many years. But when I heard of a teaching series on Revelation in an Assemblies of God church, I broke down and went for a few sessions. The instructor, to my amazement, did not teach any particular view (the AG is dispensationalist)...I left one of their Bible colleges with only 11 hours to go because I became an amillennialist, realizing I couldn't be in this denom.....

I used to go to a local church of the Church of God, Anderson Indiana denomination just because they are amillennial. Since then I have gone to a couple of Methodist churches that have Tim LaHaye's and John Hagee's books in their bookstores. (The more liberal of the two actually had Alcoholics Anonymous, the "AA Bible" so to speak)!

The Methodist church I attend now, about 2-3 times a month, has LaHaye's books. This may not be "social action" but I intend to ask the pastor why these books are in the store and if he believes in them. I asked a music ministry guy about them and he said, "They just have the most popular books" and that he doesn't know his pastor's view. If the pastor affirms he is a dispensationalist I may stop going to the church and tell him why (after prayer and consideration).

Other than this I may write my Congressman a letter something similar to:
Letter to President Bush From Evangelical Leaders, Published: July 29, 2007
(I don't agree with all of their biblical interpretations...but...please look who signed it: Leighton Ford (I met him once, formerly with Billy Graham, a dispensationalist), Berten Waggoner, the National Director of Vineyard (surprised me), etc.)

Soon, I hope to send some financial support to:
Pastor Kakish and The Home for New Life in Ramallah

That summarizes my "vote."
I'm sure we will find more to discuss from Moyers,

In Christ,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

Re: the poll

Sorry I didn't offer a vote category 'for' Hagee & CUFI.
But you know polls...how biased they can be....Oooops!
Duh,
Rick

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the post. I watched the discussion on the link you provided and enjoyed it. I have Weber's book, "On the Road to Armageddon". It's a good read, though I think Chapman's "Whose Promised Land?" and Sizer's "Christian Zionism" are a bit more thorough.

Unfortunately, they don't yet have the video available on Moyer's website of the actual story on Hagee & CUFI.

I once had an email exchange with a Christian Zionist who accused me of being an anti-Semite and having "the same heart as Hitler", because I disagreed with the view that the Jews are God's chosen people above all others and that we should unquestioningly support Israel.

Not too long ago I was leading worship at the jail and the guy who delivered the sermon started talking about how God had sent Hurricane Katrina to punish America because of the Israeli pullout from Gaza. It was all I could to keep my mouth shut (for the sake of the inmates being ministered to), but I've made it a point to not work with that particular preacher again.

I think one of the best forms of social action to counter this hyper-dispensationalism/Christian Zionism is through the use of media such as the Internet, like you said. I too have had some uncomfortable dialogs with friends on the topic. Some have changed their views as a result. Others haven't.

BTW, another great book, which I have given to dispi friends, is "Light Force" by Brother Andrew. He has Evangelical credibility because of "God's Smuggler" and he deals with the subject of supporting the Palestinian church in a very gentle and winsome manner, based primarily on personal anecdotes.

[Guest]

Hi Danny,

Try this link to get the video on Hagee & CUFI

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch2.html

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

You might want to check out the British "Channel 4" documentary The Doomsday Code. It deals primarily with how people interpret end time prophecy and the political/social implications. The host, Tony Robinson, also hosted a "Channel 4" program that debunked the Da Vinci Code.

[Guest]

Thanks Steve, that link did the trick. There is something very chilling about a Christian leader recommending a preemptive military attack on another country. Somehow, that just doesn't fall into my understanding of "What Would Jesus Do?"

I also noticed that several of the "rank and file" people interviewed intimated that if you don't totally support Israel, you aren't really a Christian. At what point does this cross the line into being a cult?

[Guest]

I've found that with many Christians when you even mention that Israeli Jews have been wrong at times, you're met with a blank stare. I think this unwillingness/blindness to even acknowledge wrongs on both sides (Palestinians/Jews) is not healthy, just nor biblical.

My mind goes back to Abraham's encounter with Abimelech. When Abraham lied to him about his sister and Abimelech found out about it this was his response:

Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, "What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done."

Remember, Abraham was the very person that the Gen 12:3 promise was given to (I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you). We see in the rest of the encounter that Abimelech was very kind to Abraham, yet in the verse above we also see that he didn't hesitate to point out what Abraham did was wrong, and God apparently had no problem with it.

Fast forward to the 21st century. How is it that we can interpret Gen 12:3 to mean blind uncritical allegiance, I don't know. If Abraham himself can be challenged when he does wrong, why not his descendants today?

I think Abimelech's encounter shows us there is a difference between being unkind or cursing someone and simply pointing it out when they've messed up.

[Guest]

Hey Steve, I just watched The Doomsday Code. Thanks for the link. It was very entertaining, if a bit hyperbolic. It was interesting to see how Dispensationalism appears to a complete outsider. I'm glad he had some non-dispi Christians to provide a counterpoint, though I wish he had given them more time. The end was a bit frustrating, especially the whole "magic mushroom" hypothesis. All in all though I'm glad I watched it.

[Guest]

The end was a bit frustrating, especially the whole "magic mushroom" hypothesis

I know what you're saying Danny. Especially since it would be such an easy point to refute. Revelation has so many thought out allusions to the Old Testament that this explanation simply doesn’t hold water. Furthermore, he had just made the points about the detailed calculation of 666, the scores of writings that were in the same style and how it had specific symbolic connections to Rome in that day. You can't have it both ways. Either the book is full of random senseless visions written by someone who is "spaced out" or it's not. I think when he heard about the "magic mushroom" theory it was just too "entertaining" an idea for him to leave out.