Moyers: Hagee, CUFI, and an interview

[Guest]

Dave, I think I can answer, in part, to what difference it makes what our eschatology is. I have said this before but I will reiterate that the difference is that if we all were is as extreme as Christian Zionists are then the Gospel of Christ would never be spread to people of supposed jewish heritage because they - like (some) dispensationalist - believe all Israel is and will be saved. This is the danger and the heresy I earlier spoke of.

[Guest]

its very frustrating how few fellow christians show any interest in delving deeper into the scriptures. if you bring up novel ideas to them (that fascinate me) they give you that "that's nice" look but you know they have no interest. thank goodness for this forum.

Since I went to Bible college (way back, 76-81) about 95% of my talking about God, the Bible & theology is on the internet. These things are really all I ever talk about...to speak of, lol. I have a neighbor who, sometimes, likes to talk. It's not that he dislikes to; he has a wife & 6 kids (well, the last one is due any day).

I especially like this forum due to its smaller size (having posted @ Beliefnet with 13,000 posts...but I quit there a couple years ago).

Also, I really like the fact that, at FBFF, I can talk about stuff that many Christians might anathemize me for. Maybe it's just me...but I speak (post) about some of my "doubts" as well as the things I think I know or understand.

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but are you saying that you break fellowship with other believers because they aren't interested in your differing views on eschatology? If so, why?

At church I politely shake hands and say "Hello" after I find out they aren't interested in theology. Btw, I see "theology" as the study of God...as did A.W. Tozer, who insisted that anyone who thinks about God is a theologian! I heartily agree.

In one sense, echatology is one among many 'categories' in theology. I think I know what Danny meant about it being (kind of) 'peripheral' and perhaps, not primary or of first importance in this sense. On the other hand:

....yet on the other hand one's eschatology can dramatically shape one's view of the world and how one goes about following Jesus.

Jesus reigns right now! And all too many Christians think He will reign (LATER) when He returns; perhaps after the rapture & seven years of "us" being in heaven first. These people seem to see "Jesus in heaven" as the ticket to it and not much more till "He reigns from (geographical) Jerusalem and becomes the King of Kings!" (I've heard John Hagee say this on t.v.).

"Becomes?" He IS King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

That the Lord reigns right now seriously shapes the way I see the world. And it can be discouraging and frustrating to me when others don't see this. When folks talk about "revival" and how we need it, sure, maybe we do. But how about let's just go with what we have: A King and Kingdom. (How much more awesome can that get)?

So I don't "break fellowship" with anyone over their eschatological views. Rather, I actively seek out others who know HE REIGNS NOW. Jesus is much more than a ticket to heaven and being a Christian is more than just a good, wholesome lifestyle. Churches or people who believe only these things & that His Reign "will be later"...are missing out on a lot. I hear preachers say things like, "C'mon! We need to get this stuff!" (they are teaching). If they taught Jesus Reigns, that would cover it and more! I'm so much more confident in Him since I've learned He reigns this very second: It's increased my faith by leaps & bounds!
Rick

[Guest]

Rick_C,

Well said. This seems like a good place for cleaning dispensational dust off Christian feet.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

Rather, I actively seek out others who know HE REIGNS NOW. Jesus is much more than a ticket to heaven and being a Christian is more than just a good, wholesome lifestyle. Churches or people who believe only these things & that His Reign "will be later"...are missing out on a lot. I hear preachers say things like, "C'mon! We need to get this stuff!" (they are teaching). If they taught Jesus Reigns, that would cover it and more! I'm so much more confident in Him since I've learned He reigns this very second: It's increased my faith by leaps & bounds!

Well said, but very few pastors do it the way they should. Keep up the good work, Rick.

[Guest]

Jesus reigns right now! And all too many Christians think He will reign (LATER) when He returns...

Yes, Jesus reigns right now. The Kingdom of God was in the midst of the crowd to whom Jesus was talking. That Kingdom consisted of the King (Jesus) and His subjects (His disciples). He wasn't ruling over the many non-disciples gathered there.

So it is today. Jesus still reigns over His subjects. But the great majority of people are not subject to Him.

However the day will come "(LATER) when He returns" when His kingdom will extend to the whole earth:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty–four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." Rev 11:15-18

For me the context makes it clear that this full reign of Christ takes place when Christ returns and the dead are judged and the saints rewarded.
We also notice that in Revelation, seven trumpets are sounded (in John's vision). The events mentioned above occur at the sounding of the last one.

Paul, also, states that the resurrection will take place at the sounding of the last trumpet:

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

[Guest]

When folks talk about "revival" and how we need it, sure, maybe we do. But how about let's just go with what we have: A King and Kingdom. (How much more awesome can that get)?

Amen, Rick!

What got me finally fed up with the Charismatic churches I had been part of for many years was that even though they believed in a "kingdom now" theology, it was mostly kept within the church walls. We had healing services and conferences and lots of talk about a revival that was always just over the horizon. All sorts of activity, but most of it was by, for and to the same group of Christians week after week.

I once had a dream about it where I saw a bunch of children playing in a swimming pool. They were laughing and splashing the cool, clear water on each other. Surrounding the pool was a desert, but the children seemed oblivious to it. In the desert people were wandering -- blind, thirsty, dressed in tatters.

Physical fitness occurs by a combination of nutrition and exercise. Without exercise there is no healthy growth. Most of the churches I've known are almost completely focused on nutrition and almost completely devoid of exercise (by which I mean lots of teaching and impartation of information, but little ministry to the poor and marginalized). My friends in AA tell me that the real growth begins when an alcoholic sponsors and cares for other alcoholics. Likewise, Christians grow when they stop being an audience, get out of the church building and start ministering to the world around them.

I think eschatology plays an integral part in this "blind spot" that I saw so much of. If Jesus be comin' soon, why bother getting messy. Rather than work for social justice, let's hunker down in our bunker and wait for the Rapture to get us out of here. And, as those videos pointed out, let's not work for peace in the Middle East; that might interfere with God's end-times plan.

It becomes a form of fatalism. Most Christians I know seem to think the world is a bad place and getting worse each day. They also seem to think this is an inevitable part of living in the end-times. This negative view of the world results in a desire to retreat from it. One of the profound changes that occured in me when my eschatology changed to Preterism was that my view of the world around me changed. I realized that the world is not bad, it is good (albeit, with a lot of problems). This led to a desire to engage the world in Jesus' name, not shrink from it. To roll up my sleeves and get messy, like He did.

As you said, Rick, we have a King and a Kingdom. We have a job to do here and now.

Sorry for ranting.

[Guest]

...As you said, Rick, we have a King and a Kingdom. We have a job to do here and now.

Sorry for ranting.

Excellent rant.

[Guest]

Many great comments here, folks

I just received an email from Jerry Clampet of ESA:
Evangelicals for Social Action.

Last week I 'signed my name' to the list of people in support of the (original) Letter sent to President Bush in July. My name and town should shortly appear on the appropriate page (click on "More Information Related").

Though I don't completely endorse what all the Letter said, nor support everything the ESA does (from a theological perspective); in principle I fully support this particular ESA endeavor.

Dear Rick:

We appreciate your joining us in support of the letter sent to President Bush. As we noted, your name and city/state will be forwarded to the White House. We're so glad you watched the Moyer's Journal a few nights ago.

In addition, we have added a page on our web site to list the additional signers, such as yourself. However, before we add your name and city/state to this list, we would like your confirmation that this is acceptable to you.

Sending us a simple "yes" or "no" in a "REPLY" will be just fine.

Obviously, the more people who sign on to the letter, the more effective it will be, so please consider sending the letter to some of your like-minded friends and encourage them to sign on. Tell them to go to our home page (www.esa-online.org) and see the letter and the link to add their name of support.

Blessings to you,

Jerry Clampet
Evangelicals for Social Action

(He asked for my street address also but I didn't give it at this time...want to make sure the email is legitimate, etc.; it sure seems to be).
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The two state solution is far better than what Hagee and CUFI have to offer, imo, anyway. And it's so apparent that: The REAL Way to peace in the Middle East --- and in this whole wide world --- is the Prince of Peace and King of Kings, Amen.

As King Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers." So I signed my name -- as a Christian (in what little I can do) -- in the hopes that a process of peace will be pursued and the bloodshed will stop.

I encourage you (all) to pray and consider signing your name and sharing this correspondence too.

Btw, you don't have to be an American to sign.

May Our Father's Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven,
Rick

P.S. Maybe it's just me but...let's send John Hagee & CUFI a message! (as I'm sure he and they keep up with what ESA is doing along these lines)....
God bless you

[Guest]

I just emailed eleven people including the pastor of the Methodist church I have been visiting, my cousin who is a senior elder, the pastor of a Church of God, Anderson, Indiana (amillennial), and C. Michael Patton, who was recently on James White's radio show: click this for his blog.

Subject: John Hagee and CUFI information

Greetings in Christ, Friends and Family,

I hope you and yours are doing well.

Last Friday (Oct. 5, 2007) I watched Bill Moyers Journal on PBS, not knowing what the topic would be. Most of the program was devoted to Reverend John Hagee and CUFI: Christians United For Israel. (I posted Steve's link here to watch or read). This was a comprehensive report that had excerpts from: CUFI's most recent rally, John Hagee's sermons, an interview with Hagee, and a closing interview with two experts on "dispensational theology" and the Middle East, with Israel and the Palestinians specially in view.

From Moyers' site I found: Evangelicals for Social Action (ESA link). I read the Letter From Some Prominent (non-dispensational) Evangelical Leaders that was sent to President Bush in July that urged the President to pursue a peaceful settlement to the conflict. Though I do not fully agree with everything that is in this Letter, or all that the ESA believes (on theological grounds); I fully support this particular ESA endeavor in principle. I've signed my name in support and been assured that the White House will see it.

Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" which is something quite different than Hagee and CUFI are saying. If they have their way it will be war against Iran! -- which would be very, very bad for Israel! The Prince of Peace and King of Kings, our Lord Jesus Christ, does not support hate and war in any way (in my opinion)...And again, He says, "Blessed are the peacemakers."

Some of you know I'm a committed "amillennialist" and am pretty outspoken against dispensational theology. But since Rev. Hagee has gone way too far! --- I've decided to do more than just "talk" about it. By simply signing my name; it's one small thing I can do to be a part of the solution, rather than a part of the problem.

Regardless of what your beliefs are about eschatology ("the end times"); I'm sure you'll gain new perspectives and alternate viewpoints from this Moyers' report. If you like "Bible prophecy" don't miss it!

If you can support the ESA's Letter to President Bush, I encourage you to and share their site with others.
By the way, you do not have to be an American citizen to sign on.

Thanks for your time and God bless you.
In Jesus,
Rick C.

Afaik, only the Church of God pastor is not a dispensationalist. C. Michael Patton is a progressive dispensationalist but has been open to the amillennial view. My cousin is also a prog-dispy, but I don't know how open he is....

Hopefully these folks will look into both Moyers and ESA. Quite an education, imo!

But I won't be surprised if...well, maybe they will watch & read & take a new view on things? I'll be optimistic about these folks till proven otherwise, lol,
Rick
(out)

[Guest]

Another point of view (one state solution) can be read at:

Palestine: democracy not Zionism

An excerpt:

Just as marriage is vastly less complicated than divorce, democracy is vastly less complicated than partition. A democratic post-Zionist solution would not require any borders to be agreed, any division of Jerusalem, anyone to move from his current home, or any assets to be evaluated and apportioned. Full rights of citizenship would simply be extended to all the surviving natives still living in the country, as happened in the United States in the early 20th century and in South Africa in the late 20th century.

Blessings,
Lazarus43