Question about the 2nd Coming as described in Rev 20

[Guest]

Sean,

If my memory serves me correctly, John MacArthur is premil and believes (as do I) that all unbelievers are to be killed at the second coming of Christ.

If this is the case then how do these verses from Zechariah fit? Noting that Christ returns in verse 3 and 4.
Zechariah 14:16-18

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Hi Sab,
I have a transcribed version of Steve Gregg's lecture on Zech. 14 here at http://www.endtimesmadness.com/Zech14.html and there is also a link to the lecture itself at that location.

[Guest]

I disagree with this on the grounds that the Apostles, once fully filled with the Spirit understood who Israel truly is. Premillers would not have a leg to stand on if they viewed Israel in the way it is to be understood, that being, as the Apostles did because to be a premillennial believer one would have to believe that in the end all physical Israel will be saved.

Allyn, where do you get this idea? Perhaps you are talking about Dispensationalists (a subset of Premillenialists). All or most of them seem to believe that God has one plan for physical Israel in the future and another for Christians.

I would be classified as a Premillenialist, and I do not believe this. Nor do I believe that all of physical Israel would be saved.

Read Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho (a Jew)". Justin clearly believed that those who submit to Jesus the Messiah are the true Jews, and comprise the Israel of God. Yet, he was a Premillenialist, believing in a literal millenium after the Antichrist appears.

I think your generalization is too broad. It may be applicable to most Dispensationalists.

Sean, the night after I replied to you, I said to myself, "I know that Sean is going to bring up the idea that all those who do not share in the resurrection of the righteous at Christ's return, are going to be destroyed."
Then I corrected myself. "No. I don't know that Sean is going to do this. I cannot know what a free will agent will choose. Nevertheless, I expect him to do it.

In any case, I had already begun to think of my reply (before I read your post on the matter). Just to give you a hint of what is to come, I think there are righteous persons who will not "make" the first resurrection at the coming of Christ, but who will not be destoyed either, but will go on living throughout the millenium. I think I have words of Christ which indicate it.

Only true disciples ---- overcomers, will share in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

There will be people there over whom Jesus and His saints will rule!

[Guest]

Allyn, where do you get this idea? Perhaps you are talking about Dispensationalists (a subset of Premillenialists). All or most of them seem to believe that God has one plan for physical Israel in the future and another for Christians.

I would be classified as a Premillenialist, and I do not believe this. Nor do I believe that all of physical Israel would be saved.

Read Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho (a Jew)". Justin clearly believed that those who submit to Jesus the Messiah are the true Jews, and comprise the Israel of God. Yet, he was a Premillenialist, believing in a literal millenium after the Antichrist appears.

I think your generalization is too broad. It may be applicable to most Dispensationalists.

I may be generalizing but I don't think too much. All pre-millennial people I know believe this. They believe that, of course, the rapture occurs before the 1000 years (of peace) and before the 7 year tribulation. During the tribulation you will find that the 144 thousand are Jewish (virgins if you take it ultra literal) evangelists who came to believe that Christ Jesus is truly the Messiah. These 144 thousand then preach the Gospel to all the race of israel who, btw, have all generally come back to the land of Israel. They all then see Christ as the Savior as they look upon Him whom they have pierced. Thus all Israel is saved (along with whatever number of Gentiles who come into faith during that time).

Here are three of the hundreds of websites that describe the pre-trib view as I have always known it to believe.

http://www.jcracingteam.com/144_thousand.htm

http://www.apocalipsis.org/rap-rebut.htm

http://sharonsrose.blogspot.com/2006/07 ... on_27.html (do a "find on this page" finding the comment on the 144 thousand)

[Guest]

Hi Allyn,

Thanks for the link to the transcript.

I have a couple of questions about that view.

Zech 14: 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

1. Steve says

This is not a reference to the second coming of Christ at all. Instead it is the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

But in 70 AD it wasn't all nations - it was only Rome.

How does this fit with: v 3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Makinga very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

How can that have been fulfilled in 70 AD? It says my God will come and all the saints with you - the same as in 1 Thess 3:13: Before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. and Jude 14: Behold the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints.

"Every pot shall be holiness unto the Lord" doesn't necessarily mean animal sacrifice. I had never even thought of that in all the times I'd read it.

I believe every wall shall fall at Christs second coming - it says so plainly in Ezekiel 38:20 - however Ezekiel 38:23 says ..."I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord."

I see that as being the survivors. and that they will rebuild. I see the second coming as the end of civilization the way we know it but not yet the end of the physical world. Isaiah says the earth is burned and few men are left.

If the saints are to rule and reign with Christ who/what are they ruling?

Steve seems to be saying that whoever comes in Zech 14 is there to destroy Jerusalem (I may have read what he said wrongly) - again I never saw that as being the intent of verse 4 - I see Christ coming to deliver the people in Jerusalem who are in danger of being destroyed by all the nations who are there for that purpose.

[Guest]

Hi Sab,
I hope you won't mind if I let Steve answer that question. If he doesn't see this on the board then pleas PM him with the link here and then I am sure he will clearly give his position.

[Guest]

But in 70 AD it wasn't all nations - it was only Rome.

Actually, the book of Acts says it this way:

Act 4:25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, "'Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'--
Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.


The quote from David speaks of all the kings and rulers of the earth were gathered together against Christ. Then in the next verse they interpret this as Pontius Pilate, Herod and the Gentiles along with the people of Israel.

Biblical language is like this. The same goes for the crucifixion. Rome crucified Christ, yet the apostles always lay that charge against the Jews, because they were the ones who turned Him over.

Also, if you read in Daniel 2:

Dan 2:37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
Dan 2:38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all--you are the head of gold.
Dan 2:39 Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these.

Did all these kingdoms, the last of the four being Rome, rule over all the earth? This is an example of how the bible uses language to make a point. Rome consisted of all the conquered kingdoms that came before it. So to say "it was only Rome" doesn't jive with scripture, it would seem.

Yet another example is when Israel was exiled to Babylon. The bible says that they were going to Babylon, it also says they were going to all the nations.

Jer 29:14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the LORD, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.
Jer 29:15 "Because you have said, 'The LORD has raised up prophets for us in Babylon,'

and

Dan 9:7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you.

Daniel prayed this prayer in Babylon. Yet he states that they were cast into many lands. Another example of how the bible will use the terms many nations and it refer to a nation, as well as being exiled to Babylon being stated as being exiled to many lands.

Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

How can that have been fulfilled in 70 AD?

How was this statement of Jesus fulfilled?

Mat 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

When you get a chance, could you comment on why you think there will be survivors of the second coming (based on your interpretation of Zech 14) when the new testament seems to suggest there will not be survivors of the second coming? (As I mentioned in my previous posts). I don't see how scripture can contradict itself, and I take the new testament revelation as an interpretive tool to understand the old testament.

1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

[Guest]

Hi Sean

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What nations is Christ going to rule if they are all dead?

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

And which nations is Satan going to deceive if they're all dead?

[Guest]

Hi Sean

What nations is Christ going to rule if they are all dead?

He's already ruling the nations right now.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

First, all authority has already been given to Jesus, there is nothing currently being withheld. So who's judgment was it that Jerusalem fall in 70AD? I believe it was Christ judgment on them as king of kings and lord of lords.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

1 Cor 15 is another example of Christ reign being a present reality. His reign will continue until death is defeated. When will that happen? Paul answers this in the same chapter:

1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

This event is commonly known as the rapture. This is the event we are all waiting for. Since death is defeated at the rapture, and death is the last enemy, it seems apparent that Christ reign can only be now, and there can not possibly any more enemies after the return of Christ because that event signals the end of the last enemy.


Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Acts 2 and Hebrews 10 also confirm that Christ was seated on the throne of David just as the prophets said He would, and that He is reigning now until death is defeated.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

And which nations is Satan going to deceive if they're all dead?

Since I'm Amillennial, I see Revelation 20 as referring to the Church age. During the church age Satan is "bound" from deceiving people of all nations when they hear the Gospel and are converted. In other words, Satan is powerless to stop the spread of the Gospel. He's tried for almost 2,000 years and it's still spreading, making disciples of all nations, bringing them out of darkness.

The binding of Satan, IMO is symbolic of the church age where Satan can be resisted (James 4:7) and his power is greatly reduced:

Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


The devil destroyed through the death and resurrection of Christ? That seems to be what it says.

sab, you might want to consider listening to Steve's end times lectures and Topical Isaiah lectures. I'm pretty much in agreement with what he says in them and it would answer many of your questions at one time. I mention this because while I would love to discuss this in even greater detail, I don't have a lot of time and it takes a long time to type.

[Guest]

I jsut want to add that I just read the introductory part of the 4 views of

Revelation by Steve and he mentioned that most scholars believe that

Chapter 19 describes the second coming of Christ.

[Guest]

1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

1 Cor 15 is another example of Christ reign being a present reality. His reign will continue until death is defeated.

Sean, you can hardly use I Corinthians 15:25 as evidence that Christ is now reigning "in the millenium".

I Corinthians 15:12 to the end of the chapter is all about the resurrection of the dead, which occurs at the second coming. Paul also includes other events which will subsequently occur until "the end" {vs24} when He delivers the Kingdom to the Father, after destroying every rule and authority and power.

I think it is obvious from experience, when you look around you, that Jesus does not reign in the earth. Wickedness is on the increase on a wider level than it has ever been. It is becoming more tolerated, with very few voices are raised against it.

But notice, that sometimes the scriptures say a thing has been done, when it has not yet been done! Here is an example:

You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honour and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. Hebrews 2:7,8

Whether this is speaking of all things being under the feet of Jesus, or under the feet of man in general (as some maintain), is irrelevant. The point is, that God declares some things which are yet to come, as if they have already happened. When God determines to do a thing, it's as good as done now.