Question about the 2nd Coming as described in Rev 20

[Guest]

Paidon,
You highlighted "Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. "

I believe that this is not saying that everything is not subject to Him, as you imply, for that would not make sense when we know God is in complete control and God over all. Instead it makes better sense to say that yes, we may not see all things subject to Him but in fact all things are. Our limitation to see things as God sees them are common throughout Scripture and there is no reason to vary from that.

[Guest]

I think it is obvious from experience, when you look around you, that Jesus does not reign in the earth. Wickedness is on the increase on a wider level than it has ever been. It is becoming more tolerated, with very few voices are raised against it.

But notice, that sometimes the scriptures say a thing has been done, when it has not yet been done! Here is an example:

I think everything has been subjected to Christ that is why He said on the cross "It is finished".

We might see the crime rate or wickedness increasing but this does not mean that Christ is not in control or these things who are causing the trouble are not subjected to Christ.

For some reasons Christ is allowing those who are subjected to him to cause wickedness.

Example: If I'm a general and I have soldiers subjected to me it only follows that these soldiers must obey my command or else they will suffer the consequences. But we see time and time again that many soldiers are being tried in the court for wrong doings.

it is the same with Christ everyone are subjected to Him but those who does not obey will be sent to the court for judgement.

[Guest]

I think that is a good point, Paul. As I was reading your post I asked myself the question - before all things were subject to Christ, who were they subject to? I think the obvious answer is that all things were subject to God the Father. Its not as if the world were left without a commander in chief. God has always had things under His feet. If this were not so then how could we be held accountable to Him in all things we do and say? How could the world be judged for its sin if there is no one to be subjected to? A smooth transfer of power was made unto Christ and as God's right hand man we are now under His kingship through the cross.

[Guest]

I agree Allyn.

I would like to give another example with respect to the word

"subjected".

Example: If a 19 year old man stole something from a store and the store

owner caught him that owner can not pass judgement to that man

because that man is not subjected to the owner . The only one who can

pass judgement to that man is the judge who was given the authority by

the court to pass judgement according to the law of the country.

It is the same with Christ since Christ was given by God the Father the right to pass judgement to everyone and everything it only follows that we are all subjected to Him.

[Guest]

Sean, you can hardly use I Corinthians 15:25 as evidence that Christ is now reigning "in the millenium".

I'm saying that the period of time spoken of in Revelation 20 is the age we are living in. The period of time where the power of the devil has been reduced to allow those who were in bondage to the fear of death be set free, to serve the living God by obeying Christ. That seems to be what Hebrews 2:14 is getting at. And it's speaking of the time we live in.

I Corinthians 15:12 to the end of the chapter is all about the resurrection of the dead, which occurs at the second coming. Paul also includes other events which will subsequently occur until "the end" {vs24} when He delivers the Kingdom to the Father, after destroying every rule and authority and power.

I agree the context is about the resurrection. However, it seems to state in no uncertain terms that His reign will be until the last enemy (death) is destroyed. This, again, is said to occur at the return of Christ, when the resurrection occurs. Which makes logical sense, because once the dead are raised, there will no longer be death. This event is mentioned in Revelation 20:12-15, a time after the millennium is over. It is at that time that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, destroying them. These are the events that are said to occur at the second coming. Death is defeated buy the resurrection, judgement takes place, etc. This is the time when the kingdom is handed to the Father (by Christ), mentioned in 1 Cor 15:24.

That's why I don't accept the premil position. This view takes a single passage (Rev 20) from an apocolyptic writing and makes it a period of time that follows the second coming. This would seem to contradict Paul by suggesting that at the second coming, even though "death", the final enemy is defeated there are still more enemies after the millennium to be put down. Satan and those whom he has led astray gather for a great battle, even though the millennium is suppose to literally be a time when "nation will not rise against nation nor will they learn war anymore".

I just can't see it both ways. If death is the final enemy, and death is defeated at the coming of Christ, and that's when judgement is said to occur, and Revelation 20 mentions "fire from heaven" devouring the enemies of the saints (IMO, the second coming), followed by a resurrection of those who were "in" death and Hades and then are to face judement. Well, it just seems to be the event Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor 15, 2 Thes 1&2, 1 Thes 4-5, as well as John 5:28.

I think it is obvious from experience, when you look around you, that Jesus does not reign in the earth. Wickedness is on the increase on a wider level than it has ever been. It is becoming more tolerated, with very few voices are raised against it.

Was it obvious to Job (or his wife) that God was in control, what about the rising of Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Rome, Assyria, etc. Did not God raise up these kingdoms? Was not God in control?

Anyway, the simple answer is that 1 Cor 15:24 says: "after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

So what you see in the natural is exactly what you should see. A gradual destruction of all dominion, authroity and power that is not subject to Him. This happends by the Gospel going forth, by making conversions of wicked man, translating them out of the power of darkness and into the kingdom of his own Son. (Col 1:13)

There certainly is more gospel being preached today than ever before in the history of the world, making more converts than ever before. Certainly everyone will not be converted, for as you pointed out already, there are a great multitude who come against the saints...and they don't win.

But notice, that sometimes the scriptures say a thing has been done, when it has not yet been done! Here is an example:

You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honour and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. Hebrews 2:7,8

Whether this is speaking of all things being under the feet of Jesus, or under the feet of man in general (as some maintain), is irrelevant. The point is, that God declares some things which are yet to come, as if they have already happened. When God determines to do a thing, it's as good as done now.

I believe Hebrews 2:7-8 is a great description of what you have said you "see" in the world. It says the God has already put everything under Him, but we don't yet "see" everything subject to him. Why? Because He must reign until the last enemy is defeated. We live in a time of Spiritual warfare, converting sinners into saints by the word and work of God. While Jesus has the authority, the rulers of this world aren't going to give it up without a fight.

[Guest]

So many scriptures just don't make sense if I subscribe to the view that this is the millenium.

If Satan is already bound then the nations are not deceived.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?

How could Satan have filled Ananias's heart if Satan was bound in the bottomless pit?

Act 26:18 To open their (the gentile's) eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So the multitudes in India and the 1 billion muslims are not deceived by Satan because he's bound already. ???? huh?

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Doesn't make sense if we're in the millenium now. Nor do any of these verses make sense if we say Satan is already bound.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

2Cr 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

then there are all the verses about the devil...

The church came up with this view in about the 5th century because they thought the church is ruling over all the known world so 'christ' was reigning over all nations. The church was apostate... but people will say the apostasy is future. Never mind that Constantine represented himself as the sungod and that the church fathers said nothing about it. The church was full of pagan influences but that camel was swallowed too.

[Guest]

So many scriptures just don't make sense if I subscribe to the view that this is the millenium.

If Satan is already bound then the nations are not deceived.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?

How could Satan have filled Ananias's heart if Satan was bound in the bottomless pit?

1) The word bound is used as a figure of speech which means Satan is not literally in chains.

2) One of the definition of bound is "To restrict" which means that Satan's activity is not totally finish it only means that his activity has been limited therefore he can still decieve people but limited.

[Guest]

2) One of the definition of bound is "To restrict" which means that Satan's activity is not totally finish it only means that his activity has been limited therefore he can still decieve people but limited.

Satan's activity has always been limited. Only God is unlimited.

But I suppose you mean, Paul, that Satan's activity is restricted more than it was previously. But when I look at the evils of today's world, and compare it with what I read of the evils of the "old days", I can only agree with the apostle Paul who wrote to Timothy:

" But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people. For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3: 1-7

That description doesn't fit reduction of Satanic activity but rather increase in such activity! Paul also wrote to Timothy:

"Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived." 2 Timothy 3:12-13

Wouldn't evil men and imposters go from bad to better, if Satan's activity is restricted?

[Guest]

I believe that this is not saying that everything is not subject to Him, as you imply, for that would not make sense when we know God is in complete control and God over all. Instead it makes better sense to say that yes, we may not see all things subject to Him but in fact all things are.

I can go only by what I see and experience, not by what I interpret the Scriptures to say.

If I see a mother tell her child, "Marla, you come here right now," and the child responds, "NO! I'm not coming!!!" and continues to play with her toys, the idea would never occur to me that the child was SUBJECT to her mother. Her mother may well be responsible for her, but Marla is not SUBJECT to her.

Allyn, can you honestly affirm that people who raise their fist at Christ in hate, and blaspheme Him with crude and ugly words are SUBJECT to Him? If so, "subject" must have a completely different connotation from that which I understand, and from the definition dictionaries give:

Collins English dictionary defines the adjective "subject" as "under the power or control of another". Was Marla under the power or control of her mother? Her mother had no control at all.

Are those who live their lives for themselves under the control of Christ?
If so, "control" must also be used in an unusual way. Did Christ "control" Adolph Hitler, Ted Bundy, and a host of others who torture, rape, and put to death women and children, or commit other atrocities to horrible to mention? That doesn't sound like "control". It seems to me that such people are "out of control".

So, Allyn, if we "do not see that God is in control" in what sense IS He in control?

When we say that a mother does not control her children, what do we mean? In the same vein, can we not affirm that God does not control all people on earth?

Having said this, I do not mean to imply that there's nothing that God can do about the evils of the world. He does do a certain amount even now.
But the day will come when Christ will come, judge evil, and destroy His enemies.

[Guest]

Paidon wrote:

I can go only by what I see and experience, not by what I interpret the Scriptures to say.

You are in good company then because I believe that is what Thomas better known as doubting Thomas) was saying as well. However, maybe you will agree that interpretaion may very well come from experience and sight as one of the elements required for sound judgement.

Paidon wrote:

If I see a mother tell her child, "Marla, you come here right now," and the child responds, "NO! I'm not coming!!!" and continues to play with her toys, the idea would never occur to me that the child was SUBJECT to her mother. Her mother may well be responsible for her, but Marla is not SUBJECT to her.

Try this on for size then; if I have a child who refuses to obey me and insists on doing things I know to be inappropriate, or illegal, or harmful to herself, would I, as a parent possibly have the option to involve the authorities? Let me give you a real life example. My daughter (18 at the time) became involved in drugs and with that became out of control. She was heading down the spiral path of destruction. At some point my wife and I did the hardest thing a parent might do but it was literally what saved her life. We brought in the police and allowed them to search through all her possesions in her car and in her room. She wound up being charged and convicted with a felony and server a few months in jail and then went through court ordered treatment. This was something she would not have done for herself but because she ultimately was subject to us and subject to the law all the words of condemnation and foul language over this from her saying you aren't my boss and I can do anything I want, went for naught.

Another story; two people thousands of years ago had it perfect in life. They walked and talked with their Creator and found comfort in His presence. All until one day they choose for themselves a choice which made them powerless to their own free will. Even though they were free to make their choice, in their sinning, they were cast out of the utopia they cherished so. They shook their fist, as it were, in defiance to God's law and became subject to that law through disobiediance.

Paidon wrote:

Allyn, can you honestly affirm that people who raise their fist at Christ in hate, and blaspheme Him with crude and ugly words are SUBJECT to Him? If so, "subject" must have a completely different connotation from that which I understand, and from the definition dictionaries give:

Collins English dictionary defines the adjective "subject" as "under the power or control of another". Was Marla under the power or control of her mother? Her mother had no control at all.

Are those who live their lives for themselves under the control of Christ?
If so, "control" must also be used in an unusual way. Did Christ "control" Adolph Hitler, Ted Bundy, and a host of others who torture, rape, and put to death women and children, or commit other atrocities to horrible to mention? That doesn't sound like "control". It seems to me that such people are "out of control".

I can honestly say yes and have given you first hand experience on the matter and related recorded events from the Bible.

Paidon wrote:

So, Allyn, if we "do not see that God is in control" in what sense IS He in control?

When we say that a mother does not control her children, what do we mean? In the same vein, can we not affirm that God does not control all people on earth?

Don't include me in this 'we' business. I see it quite plainly. However as I pointed out some require more evidence and go down kicking and screaming as the obvious surrounds their objections.

Paidon wrote:

Having said this, I do not mean to imply that there's nothing that God can do about the evils of the world. He does do a certain amount even now.
But the day will come when Christ will come, judge evil, and destroy His enemies.

In one sense you just answered your own objections.

”…"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." (James 1:5)