Universalism and the Character of God

_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:23 am

Events that give us an insight into the character of God, such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, are facts that are less subject to opinion. They are evidence demonstrating how God feels about and deals with certain things.

According to Homer the wicked have no chance of reconciliation such as Sodom and Gemorrah, but according to Jesus there are different degees of judgement on the day of judgement because we are judged by our works. It is not one size fits all but proportional punishment which is what a just judge does.

"But i tell you it will be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." Matt 11.24
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Post by _Paidion » Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:19 pm

What's the CU (Christian Universalist) position on people who die in any of the above sins {I Cor 6:9-11}?


My position as a believer in the reconciliation of all to God, is that these people must repent and be delivered from their sins the same as the rest of us. It just so happens that this will occur after death, while for some of the rest of us, it occrs prior to our death.
They will be saved without having the Spirit of the Living God?
No.
They have no need to be "set apart" (sanctified) as members of God's Holy and Special People (aka, the elect)?
They do have a need. They, too, are being called, and will be chosen (elect) when they respond.
Do they not need the washing of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? To be "put in the right with God" (justified, sins forgiven) through His blood?
They do have a need for the efficacy of the death of Christ like everyone else.
How much adultery, sex perversion, stealing, alcoholism, addictions (idolatry), cheating, violence, strife, worshiping idols or false gods, sorcery, greed, terror, etc., etc., are they allowed to get away with? when Paul says Christians (above) can't get away with ANY of them?
In view of the final words, this seems to be a rhetorical question. But I'll answer it anyway. They, like everyone else is not "allowed to get away with" any sin. Do you think they are "getting away with" something in view of the fact that unrepentant sinners receive ages of correction in Gehenna? If they were "getting away with sin", they'd just automatically go to heaven.
CU is antinomianism ("against law", permitting, if not advocating, a freely sinful and ungodly lifestyle, that it's okay & just fine).
False. Christian reconciliationists are not antinomianists. Some liberal Universalists are.
Have I been deceived (verse 9) that I HAD to STOP being an alcoholic to inherit God's kingdom? Maybe if I backslide and reject Jesus I can get drunk and still 'make it'? (if The Rules don't apply to unbelievers).....BALONEY!


Many retributivists believe you can go on sinning and still make it. That was my belief as a Calvinist and believer in eternal torment of the lost. I believed I was one of the "elect", and no matter what I did, I'd still get to heaven, because I was "chosen" and because "salvation is not of works", and because I believed in the "merits of the blood of Christ" to deliver me from Hell.

Now I believe that if I persist in sin, I'll have to face the fiery purification of Gehenna. My present belief is a far greater deterrent to wrongdoing than my former.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:13 pm

How much adultery, sex perversion, stealing, alcoholism, addictions (idolatry), cheating, violence, strife, worshiping idols or false gods, sorcery, greed, terror, etc., etc., are they allowed to get away with? when Paul says Christians (above) can't get away with ANY of them?


Ask the thief on the cross, how much he got away with. The truth is, who wants to get away with the stuff you listed.
Why do you look at stuff like this as getting away with anything, these are the things that make life miserable and even if heaven did'nt even exist i would'nt want to "get away" with any of this.
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Post by __id_1679 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:25 pm

Hello Paidion,

Quote: "My position as a believer in the reconciliation of all to God, is that these people must repent and be delivered from their sins the same as the rest of us. It just so happens that this will occur after death, while for some of the rest of us, it occrs prior to our death."

Are you therefore a hard-determinist? Do you as Danny infer that God must necessarliy save all men? Does free-agency have a role at all? Does God always have His desires fulfilled?
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:59 pm

Hello Don (Paidion),
I wrote:What's the CU (Christian Universalist) position on people who die in any of the above sins {I Cor 6:9-11}?

You replied:
My position as a believer in the reconciliation of all to God, is that these people must repent and be delivered from their sins the same as the rest of us. It just so happens that this will occur after death, while for some of the rest of us, it occurs prior to our death.
If the Bible taught it is possible for a dead person to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior---which it doesn't---the dead would defintely become Christians in a way no one ever has. Not a Christian alive, nor one who has believed and died in the past, became a believer after they were dead and buried.

Romans 10:8ff. teaches how people become Christians: The methodology is hearing the Gospel and believing it pre-mortem (before death).

Do you have any Scripture that specifically states dead people will (or even can) "hear" the Gospel? I've heard the Gospel message preached at funerals and the dead person in the casket didn't hear it.
I wrote:They (the unbelieving dead) will be saved without having the Spirit of the Living God?

Your reply:
No.
The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit is given to people while they are alive, always and without fail. The Spirit of God was 'outpoured' in our current 'The Last Days' on the Day of Pentecost over 2,000 years ago. Explaining it, Peter said, "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh" (Acts 2:16, NASB)

Peter also taught that the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit extends till the close of this present 'Last Days Age' which will come to an end on the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Christ; at which time [all of] the dead shall be judged.

Acts 2 (NASB)
21And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."


God calls people to salvation now through the proclamation of the Gospel. Those who receive God's salvation are those who respond to Him by calling [back to Him] on the name of the Lord while they are alive (Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13).

Would you provide Scripture that speaks of "another [future] outpouring of the Holy Spirit"?
Can you give biblical evidence that God will call anyone to salvation in the Age to Come?
Where does the Bible teach that God will have "another calling" to salvation other than the one taught by the founding Apostles? which will come to a decisive end when Jesus returns.
Where does the Bible teach a corpse can receive the Holy Spirit?
I wrote:Do they (dead sinners) not need the washing of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? To be "put in the right with God" (justified, sins forgiven) through His blood?

Your reply:
They do have a need for the efficacy of the death of Christ like everyone else.
Yes they do...NOW (before they die)!

Can you give a biblical example of a [physically] dead unbeliever who was washed of his sins by Christ's precious blood?
Do you know of any sermons by any person in the Bible that were preached to a corpse or to corpses?
Would you cite at least one case of this?
If you can find any examples of this---which I don't believe you can---they most certainly wouldn't become Christians "like everyone else".

Name one single Christian IN HISTORY who became one after they died.

Rick
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:10 pm

Name one single Christian IN HISTORY who became one after they died.


Rick, In case you missed it we have been talking about salvation after Jesus's second coming and after judgment has been passed and after the unsaved are in the lake of fire. That's in Rev 20 and is in the future IMHO.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:59 am

Does God always have His desires fulfilled?

Why not ask God, Bob?

"My plan will take place , and i will do ALL MY WILL" Isa 46.10

His will Bob, is that none should perish so EVENTUALLY his will is going to be done.
Not "potentially" but "eventually" in His perfect time.
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Post by __id_1679 » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:02 pm

Steve7150,

Quote: "His will Bob, is that none should perish so EVENTUALLY his will is going to be done.
Not "potentially" but "eventually" in His perfect time.

All right . Lets take a closer look at it. If it is His will that none should perish, but that all would come to Christ, and you assert that all will come to Christ eventually, why would Jesus threaten unbelievers with judgement at all if all are going to be saved anyway? The repeated threats of Jesus make no sense whatsoever if all are ultimately going to believe in Him. :shock:
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:54 pm

Traveler wrote:Are you therefore a hard-determinist?
I am not a determinist of any kind. I believe that one of the chief ways (if not the chief way) in which man was created in the image of God, is the possession of a free will.
Do you as Danny infer that God must necessarliy save all men?


I believe that God's plan of the ages is that every individual be reconciled to God, and that each individual so reconciled thereby becomes righteous by the grace of God. Since I don't think God will ever change that plan, I suppose one could consider it as "necessary".
Does free-agency have a role at all?


I am assuming you mean a role in everyone becoming reconciled to God. Yes. It will have the same role for those who go to Gehenna as it has for those who are reconciled in this life. Everyone must repent of his own free will and submit to the authority of Christ of his own free will, or he will not be reconciled.
Does God always have His desires fulfilled?
Not right away, but ultimately, yes. Jesus taught us to pray, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If His will were always being done, that prayer would be meaningless.

Obviously, God doesn't want murders, rapes of little girls, torture, etc. Yet these things are constantly happening as we write. But ultimately, all sin will be eliminated from the Universe. That will not happen if there is eternal torment. In that case, some people will defy God and hate Him forever.

Sin can be eliminated in only two ways:

1. Sinners are annihilated.

2. Sinners cease to sin.

I believe in number #2. Right now, regenerated people have started on the narrow road of salvation (deliverance) from sin. And "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
We are being conformed to the image of Christ as long as we continue in that direction.

Hebrews 3:14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end... RSV

If we get off that road and onto the broad road, we must be corrected in Gehenna.

You might think that if man has free will, then he could continue to resist
in Gehenna forever. That is theoretically possible, but practically impossible.

Here is an analogy; it's an inadequate analogy as most analogies are, but it might help to understand why resisting forever is not possible in practice.

There is a special kind of coin which when tossed and lands on a special type of paper, will always stick to the paper if "heads" turns up. But if tails turns up, it does not stick and may be thrown again.

Throw a trillion special coins so that they will land on the special paper.
We expect approximately half of them will turn up heads. Those coins will stick to the paper, but the others may be thrown again. More coins on the second throw will turn up heads and stick to the paper.

Theoretically, some coins could continue to turn up tails whenever they are thrown on the paper. But practically, every last coin willl eventually turn up heads and stick to the paper.

The weakness of the analogy, of course, is that coins, unlike people, do not have free will.
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Post by __id_1679 » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:35 pm

Paidion,

Quote: " I am not a determinist of any kind. I believe that one of the chief ways (if not the chief way) in which man was created in the image of God, is the possession of a free will."

I am having a hard time understanding your position here. You say you cannot be a "determinist of any kind" and at the same time believe God is determined to save everyone, even if that means saving a person through the 'fires of Gehenna'. If God indeed places the wicked into Gehenna for the sole purpose of bringing repentance and reconcilliation, I don't see any good reason to beieve in any kind of 'free-agency'. In your view, God is using coersion rather than persuasion. God then fundamentalty becomes a divine rapist. I know you don't believe God is a divine rapist.

I will ask you a question I posed to Danny he chose to leave unanswered.

On which biblical grounds can you give us that would show conclusively, that if God 'failed' at bringing a person to repentance while he yet lives in this age, He will ultimately be successful in the age to come?

In answer to my question on the role of free angency, you wrote;



"I am assuming you mean a role in everyone becoming reconciled to God. Yes. It will have the same role for those who go to Gehenna as it has for those who are reconciled in this life. Everyone must repent of his own free will and submit to the authority of Christ of his own free will, or he will not be reconciled."

So in reality there is "no real free will" in your view at all. For a person to be free, a person must have at least a choice between two alternatives, unfettered and uncoerced. Otherwise it is no real freedom at all.
That you introduce a "must repent of his own free will" carries with it the assumption and by implication, that a person may not repent at all, and as you put it, "will not be reconciled". So we cannot presume that if God has a desire to save all men, it does not necessarily follow that He will save all men. Why? Because they have a free will! God will respect that part of His Image He placed in man, as I understand it.

I have a long time friend of mine who was raised in the Greek Orthodox Church. He has completely reputiated Christ, and has told me straight out, "I will die for my own sins. I don't need Jesus to pay for them".
Now, If he were to die in his state of unrepentance and unbelief, as Jesus said to the Jews, "Unless you believe..you will die in your sins".. in other verses, He said "your sins remain". That says to me without repentance, belief and faith in Christ, there is "no forgiveness". I know you agree with this. But, where we differ the most, is that I believe in the God of love who saves now! Not later. Now is the time of our salvation. Why now and not later? Because as Jesus said, "you don't know the hour of your Master's coming". there will be a time when the Master will get up and "shut the door" while those outside will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth in outer darkness". The urgency of the Lord is clear. NOW!

There is no hope for the lost in Gehenna Paidion. The imagery Jesus uses in the Parables would suggest otherwise; "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body be thrown into Hell" (Gehenna). Matt.5:29 NIV
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