Universalism and the Character of God

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:05 pm

I believe you spoke well, Rick. Defending the Word against false teaching becomes almost futile on most discussion boards but on this board the standard is higher and the rebuttles need to be also. Excellent post.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:29 pm

a. Salvation comes ONLY by faith (dead people cannot have faith).

Rick, Do you and Homer ever tire of adding words to scripture? Apparently not because you guys keep going to the well yet again.

There are four tests for salvation, and faith though PLEASING to God is NOT one of the four.

1. BELIEVING Jesus is the Christ & the Son of God. 1st John 5.11

2. Keep his commands. 1st John 3.24

3. Love the brethren. 1st John 4.13

4. Posess the Holy Spirit. 1st John 3.24& 3.13

As Mike pointed out several people BELIEVED God without the aid of faith like , PAUL like THOMAS like MOSES like ABRAHAM. God is not a respecter of persons therefore what he gave Paul eventually he will give everyone. Paul called himself the "CHIEF OF SINNERS" which he sincerely meant since he persecuted Christians YET GOD SAVED HIM.
To repeat, God is NOT a respecter of persons and He saved the chief of sinners.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:46 pm

Steve,

"Believing the Gospel" includes obeying God's commands, living life for Him (obviously before you die), and so on. Jesus said it was a "good work" to believe in Him and His Father. Both He and Paul commanded that believing in the Gospel is obedience to God (btw, dead people can't obey or disobey anyone or anything).

No living person has ever had faith in God if they didn't have it themselves including: Abraham, Thomas, Moses, me, you, or anyone else who gets faith before they die.

Allyn, (this is driving me bonkers! ...Can dead people have faith?),

You wrote:I believe you spoke well, Rick. Defending the Word against false teaching becomes almost futile on most discussion boards but on this board the standard is higher and the rebuttles need to be also. Excellent post.

Thanks, Allyn, but all I did was say what Paul said (what he wrote and how I agree with it).

An entire thread could be: "Universalism and the PLAN of God". To Paul God revealed His plan of salvation; His full and final plan that will come to an end when Christ returns at the end of this present age.

Universalism has an entirely "another plan of salvation" that not only was not written in Scripture nor taught by Christ and the Apostles---it goes AGAINST them!

God has one plan of salvation revealed in the Bible.
Universalism has another plan of salvation that takes certain Greek words from certain Bible verses (or phrases within verses), takes them out of context (blatantly ignoring the authors' train-of-thought), uses 'preferred meanings' of the Greek words, uses proof-texting, invents an extra-biblical theology based on all of the above, and then say it is the Word of God.

Sticking with God's ONLY Plan of Salvation revealed by the Holy Prophets and Apostles,
Rick

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:56 pm

God has one plan of salvation revealed in the Bible.
Universalism has another plan of salvation that takes certain Greek words from

Nope it's the same plan without an artificial deadline imposed from thin air.
Believe Christ and obey his commands and love the bretheren.

Post by **_mdh** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:46 pm

Rick said:

Allyn, (this is driving me bonkers! ...Can dead people have faith?), Shocked

Resurrected people can have faith.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:46 pm

Steve,

I wrote:God has one plan of salvation revealed in the Bible.
Universalism has another plan of salvation that takes certain Greek words from

You replied:
Nope it's the same plan without an artificial deadline imposed from thin air.
Believe Christ and obey his commands and love the bretheren.

Here are a few examples of an "artificial deadline imposed from thin air".

Universalist doctrines oppose the Bible in the following ways by teaching:
a. Salvation is possible after death.
b. NO ONE needs to believe in God or Jesus to be saved.
c. Everyone who HATES God can and will be saved.
d. Christ's return is NOT when He will judge humanity, fully and finally.
e. EVERYONE will be saved no matter what they do.
f. Christians are under only one of "two plans of salvation" (the Bible teaches just ONE, universalism another..."out of thin air").
g. Christians get saved one way, everyone else gets saved in another way (the biblical doctrine of soteriology (salvation) applies only to Christians; another extra-NON-biblical doctrine of soteriology "of salvation after death" applies to everyone else).
h. Only Christians are required to obey God's commands now ("now" meaning when any people live).
i. Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of those who now believe, has believed, or will believe before they die (Bible); sinners will pay for their own sins in Hell and will be saved THAT way (universalism).
j. Christians will inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God (Bible); everyone will inherit them both (universalism).
k. Non-believers not only aren't "brethren" (brothers in Christ, according to the Bible) but some of them really hate God and His people and are persecuting and killing our Christian brothers and sisters as I type (and these people WON'T go to heaven for doing it). <<<period.

Next time I'll use numbers coz the alphabet isn't long enuf!
Rick

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:50 pm

No living person has ever had faith in God if they didn't have it themselves including: Abraham, Thomas, Moses, me, you, or anyone else who gets faith before they die.

But Rick, it's belief in Christ that saves. Belief that Paul was given by seeing Christ , same for Thomas and almost all the disciples who abandoned Christ despite being with him for years, as well as the 500 mentioned by Paul.
They saw him risen and they believed. Are they special people given extra advantages over everyone else?
Even the people Paul wrote to, he mentioned that some of the 500 fell asleep but many were still alive and had been eyewitnesses to tell the Corinthians what they saw.
So even their faith was through knowing eyewitnesses of the risen Christ.

Post by **_mdh** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:56 pm

Rick,

It seems obvious to me you do not wish to have an intelligent, respectful dialog. You seem to go out of your way to misrepresent other peoples views. Even after they correct you. And when they get tired of reading and responding to the misrepresentation, you claim "victory".

That this would go on at this forum is a major disappointment to me.

Mike

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:58 pm

c. Everyone who HATES God can and will be saved.
e. EVERYONE will be saved no matter what they do.

I'll be back tomorrow but just for the record, i don't believe the word "all" must mean every last person. I think it's hyperbole for "great multitude that no man can number" or the "great majority of humanity."

I see you're going to the well again though. Have a good evening.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:03 pm

That this would go on at this forum is a major disappointment to me.

Mike, i don't post here expecting to change Rick or Homer's mind as they say they are opposed on principal. That is, their own principals. But i'm just hoping some open minded people consider the scriptural evidence that God intends to reconcile at least most and maybe all in His own time.