Universalism and the Character of God

[Guest]

Mike,

You wrote:

It seems obvious to me you do not wish to have an intelligent, respectful dialog. You seem to go out of your way to misrepresent other peoples views. Even after they correct you. And when they get tired of reading and responding to the misrepresentation, you claim "victory".

That this would go on at this forum is a major disappointment to me.

You seem to have not noticed Paidion's innuendo:

Augustine was the first in the church to promote the concept of eternal torment. He was also the first in the church to put "heretics" to death.
By doing so, he supposed that he was doing God a service (like the apostle Paul before his repentance). Augustine thought putting the heretics to death was a minor thing compared to allowing them to live and to deceive others so that they would end up in eternal misery also.

I think there are a significant number of retributivists today who also would be glad to put "heretics" to death ---- if they could get away with it.

So a "singificant number" of us who oppose the universalist dogma would gladly murder the universalists if we could get away with it! Nice thing to say; I'm surprised you would let this pass without comment.

Since probably 99% of all Christians believe in eternal punishment, a significant number have murder in their heart and aren't Christians at all. (My authority for the 99% figure is the same as that for the supposed 99% of all people who are going to hell: I made it up. )

I'm sure Rick is frustrated in debating such a nebulous dogma, people who are all over the place, when he feels, as I do, that this is a most dangerous doctrine. I have read of the effect universalism had on churches where it was preached in New England in the 19th century with many people leaving. Why bother following Christ, they're going to be saved regardless.

Universalists here have made many dogmatic statements based on proof texting of ambiguous passages with very little exegesis as Rick has provided. And they have also failed to respond to numerous questions regarding how it all works out in their system. The reason is simple: they do not know.

I've "bailed out" because I see the fruitlessness of continuing a discussion with one who doesn't appropriately respond to the points made, but proceeds in a fashion which is just a breath away from a personal attack.

And this statement from one who sees murderous hearts among a significant number of us traditionalist Christians! Incredible!

[Guest]

Homer,

I have asked for both sides to be respectful of the other. Have you not noticed this?

Rick, himself, was very quick to call Steve7150 when he felt he was being misrepresented. Rick has repeatedly made comments that those of the CU position are teaching 2 plans of salvation, accused them of teaching a kind of reincarnation, preaching the gospel to dead bodies in the grave, etc. I am fine to have Rick call people to account to do solid exegesis. This is good. I welcome that! A determination of the truth requires a close look at the scriptures and what they say.

I also understand frustration. I would just like to call both sides to being Christ-like in their postings, to try to understand the other side before (mis-)representing their position.

BTW: Thank you for pointing out what you feel was a mis-representation of the "retributivists". If you notice me mis-representing you or Rick (or anyone else) please let me know. That is not my desire.

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Homer said:

I have read of the effect universalism had on churches where it was preached in New England in the 19th century with many people leaving. Why bother following Christ, they're going to be saved regardless.

Do you think that the people who were motivated to follow Christ just to avoid Hell were truly disciples?

[Guest]

Homer said:

I have read of the effect universalism had on churches where it was preached in New England in the 19th century with many people leaving. Why bother following Christ, they're going to be saved regardless.

Do you think that the people who were motivated to follow Christ just to avoid Hell were truly disciples?

Sometimes that is the initial motivation, yes. How one develops in faith is a partnership. God gives each his own measure of faith. Are we right to question whether or not their faith is sufficient?

[Guest]

mdh wrote:
Homer said:
Quote:

I have read of the effect universalism had on churches where it was preached in New England in the 19th century with many people leaving. Why bother following Christ, they're going to be saved regardless.



Do you think that the people who were motivated to follow Christ just to avoid Hell were truly disciples?

Allyn Replied:

Sometimes that is the initial motivation, yes. How one develops in faith is a partnership. God gives each his own measure of faith. Are we right to question whether or not their faith is sufficient?

Actually, that is a very good question. I agree God grants each a measure of faith based on His purposes. My personal view is that God is working His plan and using all kinds of means to draw people to Himself. Some seem to fear the teaching of UR, others fear the teaching of eternal conscious torment. If it were necessary for us to have a correct understanding of our personal eschatology I suspect it would have been much more clear.

This is one reason I believe UR is likely. God has chosen to reveal His plan gradually. Very little information for the first couple of thousand years. Then Abraham comes along and more of His plan is revealed, Then Moses and the prophets, next the Christ and the apostles. At each stage more information becomes available. Did God not care about the people before Abraham?

Also, He has seems to be working with certain people groups at one time, then shifting His focus to other peoples. And within those people groups He seems to be more revealing to some individuals than others. To some He appears personally, others have to struggle to understand His truths, and still others never even hear His plan.

I could go on, but I suspect the majority of you are thinking me even more of a lunatic than you did before

But it is an interesting question, Allyn!

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

I could go on, but I suspect the majority of you are thinking me even more of a lunatic than you did before



If you're a lunatic Mike, where do i sign up? I've thought along similar themes like Jesus could have appeared to the whole world but he choose only a few.
I think there may be lot more that we don't know then we know.

[Guest]

If you're a lunatic Mike, where do i sign up?

I don't know, Steve. But I am guessing you are right that there is much that don't know!

Blessing!

[Guest]

Mike,

You wrote:

Do you think that the people who were motivated to follow Christ just to avoid Hell were truly disciples?

Yes! Most people begin as Christians out of self interest. Jesus and the Apostles repeatedly urged people to repent in their own self-interest.

Long ago Bernhard de Clairvaux suggested his ladder of self-love which ascends from:

1. Love of self for self's sake, to

2. Love of God for self's sake, to

3. Love of God for God's sake. to

4. Love of self for God's sake. (Love of self for the sake of loving others)

I believe almost all come to Christ at step 2.

You mentioned earlier in a post your discomfort at the tone of the discussion, and mentioned "bolded" words. I take no offense at this and have been guilty(?) of doing it myself. I think it particularly useful as a tool when one wants to call attention to a particular word, phrase, or sentence in a longer quote.

[Guest]

Homer,

You are right. I agree, there is a place for bolding and underlining.

Sometimes I feel like it has been used in anger. I wish that were not the case.

Anyway, all I am looking for is a respectful discussion. I would say the vast majority of posts have been so.

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Hello Steve7150,

Quote: " He did say that they would face gehenna which is judgment and why would anyone want to face that at all? He told them what they needed to know.
The real issue to me is not his hearers but the 99% of humanity who did'nt hear him when he or his Apostles preached or for hundereds of years afterwards."

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't think God is going to judge
anyone according to "what they don't know", but rather by what they do know. I think Paul teaches as much in Romans 1-2. Whatever 'light" God has revealed to any people throughout history, His judgements will always be according to His standard of righteousness. So for me, I don't concern myself with a classic "dodge" of unbelievers who will question God's justice by asking, "what about those who've never heard the Gospel"? IMO, God has given light to all people in some measure. The
universality of moral laws against murder, rape, incest, stealing, lying etc, we find in all cultures. This is a testimony of this fact and reveals the Image of God in all peoples.

To reject God's provision in Christ, places a greater responsibility upon those who "hear" the Gospel. Ultimately and finally, a rejection of Jesus would merit His divine wrath, whether the punishment is temporal, or eternal. God alone is qualified to do this. He is an impartial judge who alone knows the facts in each and every case. We do not. Jesus isn't commanding we do either, but rather to leave Eternal Judgement to the One who alone is qualified. IMO, it is His longsuffering love letting them go, those who are determined to go. I do not believe God to be a divine rapist. For love to exisit, it must be free and uncoerced. God is telling us "He so loved the world (of men), that He sent His Son".. knowing full well there would be some who would ultimately reject His love. If any of you have been rejected in love, there is no pain quite like it! I can only imagine what God feels like when He is rejected. I suppose if any of you are parents with an incorrigable child, you feel this pain more intensely.

No matter where you, me or anyone else "lands" in this debate, whether on the side of 'concious eternal torement, annihilation, or universal reconcilliation, we are all very passionate about it because we recognize
how much it really matters to our understanding of God's character. Following Jesus is indeed our call to discipleship. But what we believe about Him, has an impact upon the quality of our discipleship.
Wisdom teaches us, that its begins with a 'fear of the Lord'. Now you can water it down all you want. But Jesus drove a nail into that line of reasoning when He said, "do not fear them that kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will tell you whom to fear. Fear Him who is able to both kill the body and destroy your soul in Gehenna. Him shall you fear." I dont think this was an idle threat. He meant what He said.