Question about the 2nd Coming as described in Rev 20

[Guest]

Revelation 20, ESV
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

The book of Revelation often interprets itself. Here, the writer John has done it for us.

The binding of the devil was so that he could not deceive the nations any longer. Before Christ came, only one nation had been the recipients of the revelation of God: Israel. The devil had control over all nations when Jesus came, including a large portion of the Jews (the "remnant of Israel" were loyal to God and became Christ's disciples, while the priests Jesus rightly called "sons of the devil"). Since Jesus came, the Gospel message has gone out, beginning from Jerusalem and into any and all nations where it is taken. And the devil can't do anything about it. When it comes to the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, the devil's hands are literally tied up (though this literal truth is depicted 'symbolically' in this chapter). His deceptive powers are extremely limited as he only has jurisdiction over those who are in his kingdom---a kingdom that is being attacked and systematically dismantled in every nation, county, church, workplace, neighborhood, and home where "Jesus is Lord" is being proclaimed.

HE REIGNS,
Rick

[Guest]

Yes, I agree Satan is not going to deceive the nations when he is in the bottomless pit - I just disagree with your interpretation that that is where he is now. Because of the many verses I posted earlier that indicate that he is active now.

[_Sean]

Yes, I agree Satan is not going to deceive the nations when he is in the bottomless pit - I just disagree with your interpretation that that is where he is now. Because of the many verses I posted earlier that indicate that he is active now.

So how do we reconcile the verses you have posted with the verses that I posted such as:

Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.


Your previous comment about this passage was:

This verse does not contradict the idea that the Devil will be taken, bound and cast into the bottomless pit at Christ's second coming.

I'm not sure how your comment has relevance to the Hebrews passage.
Hebrews 2:14 states that Jesus partook of the human nature and died, and His act of dying "destroyed" the devil so that those who were subject to the fear of death would be freed from this fear. This can't mean that peoples fear of death is gone after the second coming. It means that we can offer the promise of eternal life to people now, so their fear ends now. Just as Jesus stated in John 11:25; "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

About our fear Paul says in Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.

Second, the word "destroy" in Heb 2:14 is the greek word katargeō and has this meaning:

Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

Kinda like "binding" Satan. Very similarly 2 Thes 2 talks about the man of sin acting in accord with the power of Satan being restrained until the restraint is taken away, then Jesus will come and destroy him with the breath of His mouth and the brightness of His coming.

This sounds like Satan being loosed for a little season, only to be destroyed by the bright, fiery coming of Jesus, it sounds like Revelation 20:7-9.

Jesus also said that He gives us power over all the power of the enemy and nothing shall hurt us. How can this be if Satan (the enemy) can still "hurt" us? (Luke 10:19)

It seems that both are true or the bible is in error. I believe both can be true, for the fear of death and power over the enemy aren't given to all people, but rather this is only given to the followers of Jesus. Those who have been given the Holy Spirit. So while you can point to the things the devil is doing in the world you have to keep in mind that He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. (1 John 4:4). That's why we are told to resist the devil, because he is defeated by Christ. And in Christ we share in that victory. Paul said that God will soon crush Satan under your feet (Rom 16). Are we suppose to be running from a lion or crushing his head? The world follows Satan. The best Satan can do to us is try and get us to deny the faith, so we must be alert for that! But by faith in Christ and the power of God within us we can defeat him, because his power over us has been "destroyed". Either that or his power is greater than Jesus' power.

[Guest]

So Sean, Allyn and Ric...

Are you saying Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour on the end of a long leash? And you say I add my own interpretation to the scriptures.

I am saying that, yes. However, I did not say you are adding your own interpretation. Instead I kindly asked several questions and you avoid answering them and instead try to disqualify us with phrases like in the above quote. This is a tactic I have seen used before and honestly, I think this forum is above all of that. So, sab and Paidion, instead of raising your objections using the above kind of tactic, simply answer the questions we ask or say that you respectfully decline. That's all any of us should do. I laid out in another thread the chain of events as I see them. Why not address those Scriptures? I am not trying to offend, so if I have I am sorry. I just think we should be more respectful to one another and that includes me doing that also.

[Guest]

sab,

If you don't mind my asking, what is your nationality? Mine is mostly "celtic" or northern European with a little Cherokee.

Do you know that as late as about 800 years ago child sacrifices still occurred in remote parts of Ireland and the British Isles? Till the Gospel came to the nations where my families came from...they were Druids and bound in ignorance. Had the Gospel not come there I might have been offered as a sacrifice! The entire Western World could still be pagan! Did you know Hitler intentionally revived ancient pagan beliefs (like in the god Odin)?

Just think about it. Think about just how great the consequences have been that Christ is known. We could be speaking German right now and praying to Odin, or Cernunnos, or some other pagan deity, my friend!

I can confidently say that my family has definitely been "unbound" from the captivity of the devil, and Amen & Amen, in Jesus' name!

This is exactly what the devil no longer can do: deceive entire nations, deceive them some more, and keep deceiving them for good. He can still do lots of other bad stuff, sure. But when the Gospel hit Ireland, dear friends...I'M FREE! (and not in a pile of hot coals....and I'm not making a joke up either)!

Allyn, let's have church! O, Glory to God!
Rick

[Guest]

Do you know that as late as about 800 years ago child sacrifices still occurred in remote parts of Ireland and the British Isles? Till the Gospel came to the nations where my families came from...they were Druids and bound in ignorance. Had the Gospel not come there I might have been offered as a sacrifice! The entire Western World could still be pagan! Did you know Hitler intentionally revived ancient pagan beliefs (like in the god Odin)?

Just think about it. Think about just how great the consequences have been that Christ is known. We could be speaking German right now and praying to Odin, or Cernunnos, or some other pagan deity, my friend!

Hmmmm... When did Hitler do that? Before or after Satan was bound?

Let's see, presumably after Satan was bound, we have had World War I and II, the first world wars in history. Hitler had 6 million Jews killed (as well as gypsies and others), and the Soviet Union had many more Jews than that killed (though over a longer period of time). The Soviet regime lasted for 70 years, during which many Christians were tortured to death, not only physical torture but mental torture to the point that many of them became insane.

"After Satan was bound" the religion of Islam arose, among whom are many who demean women, and many who spread terror throughout the earth.

"After Satan was bound", came the development of nuclear bombs which were used in the destruction of two Japanese cities, and the maiming of thousands of people. (I myself, while in teacher's college in 1959, saw the welts on the bodies of two Japanese cooks)

These are just a few of the horrific events in the world occurring after "Satan was bound." Were the "entire nations" of Germany and the Soviet Union not deceived by Satan to commit permit these atrocities?

Now maybe you can list a few of the much more evil events which occured while Satan was still loose to "deceive entire nations".

[Guest]

Paidion,

Now maybe you can list a few of the much more evil events which occured while Satan was still loose to "deceive entire nations".

For details, see the Old Testament: The devil had every Gentile nation under his dominion then. Even when Christ came to the Israelites, satan had a large number of the Jewish nation in his kingdom.
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What you mean by "bound" and what John in Revelation 20 meant aren't the same. You're reading more into what's there than is there!

Did Hitler, a World War, Islam, Communism...or any other thing or person bring an end to the Gospel being preached and believed? No, the devil is bound regarding that. Did and do the killing of millions of martyrs stop God's Church from growing? No, satan's hands are tied.

I wonder what a Chinese believer would say about if the devil has been bound; if he can stop the Underground Church in China? My guess is they'd say: "The Gospel is and will be preached here!"

Did satan have victories when Islam and Communism came out? Yes. Does he still have what the Bible calls "strongholds" in areas of the world? Yes. Does satan sometimes achieve "big victories"? for fairly long periods of time? Yes, the devil has a kingdom. But he has no power to stop the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, which Jesus Himself prophesied would happen before the end.

Where the Gospel goes the deceptions of the devil gotta-go!
Rick

[Guest]

So Sean, Allyn and Ric...

Are you saying Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour on the end of a long leash? And you say I add my own interpretation to the scriptures.

I am saying that, yes. However, I did not say you are adding your own interpretation. Instead I kindly asked several questions and you avoid answering them and instead try to disqualify us with phrases like in the above quote. This is a tactic I have seen used before and honestly, I think this forum is above all of that. So, sab and Paidion, instead of raising your objections using the above kind of tactic, simply answer the questions we ask or say that you respectfully decline. That's all any of us should do. I laid out in another thread the chain of events as I see them. Why not address those Scriptures? I am not trying to offend, so if I have I am sorry. I just think we should be more respectful to one another and that includes me doing that also.

You may have a clear idea of what questions you asked but I don't actually know what you're talking about. I only said I find that the amillenial position that the binding of Satan refers only to the fact that the gospel is preached but that doesn't make any sense on the basis of many verses I quoted and with the evidence of evil in the world - this seems a very limited binding indeed. I know and believe Satan can do no more than God allows - but that is the same as it was in the book of Job. I know he is defeated but that doesn't mean he is bound and cast into the bottomless pit at this time.

Frankly I had not heard of the amillenial position until recently and cannot imagine how anyone could read that into the scriptures. You have to have all sorts of other doctrines to explain the many questions which it raises.

Christ defeated death with His resurrection but that doesn't automatically mean we can escape the death of the flesh.

From what I have gathered from the amillenial position here is that it also means you believe that there is going to be a seven year trib at the end of the age before Christ comes when Satan deceives the nations - I don't believe that either.

Sean asked if i thought the church and Israel were 2 separate entitities. Yes I do. In Romans 9 to 11 Paul talks about Israel and the church being 2 separate entities. This idea that the church has replaced Israel is the product of church fathers from the anti-Jewish church fathers from the 2nd century onwards. The very thing Paul warned the church not to do in Romans 11. If the Jews reject Christ how can Israel and the church be one and the same? Who are the Jews then? what is this nation called Israel?

It was Augustine who first came up with the idea that we were in the millenium already because paganism was outlawed (but present in many church traditions like the veneration of idols and the exaltation of Mary to the status of queen of Heaven - the adoration of relics) - the cult of the emperor was swallowed hook line and sinker by the professing church because the emperors SAID they were Christian.

I don't believe Satan can prevent the spread of the gospel but I don't see that as proof that he's bound the way it's described in Rev 20.

And Sean - I do know that Revelation is written in symbols. But what of verses that are plainly written - I saw a great multitude out of every nation ... (NOT all of Revelation uses symbols)

The rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years was finished... - but according to you this is not a literal 1000 years it is more like 2000 now. This sort of mangling of scriptures is just plain confusing.

If Satan is bound what is Revelation 12 talking about then that says Satan is going to persecute the woman. Is it Satan that is personally killing the Jews? (Which is who I identify the woman as - since 'she' gave birth to Christ - the church didn't give birth to Christ) Or did Satan use people as his instruments in his hate for Israel? He used people didn't he? All through history - He used the so-called christians for most of the last 2000 years. Were they deceived? What else could account for the mindless hatred the "church" has showed towards the Jews for centuries? (But Sean started another thread about the US support for Israel being the reason you have problems there. which underlies his theology. So, do you care about Israel?) What did the Jews actually reject for the last 2000 years - a loving savior? or the AntiChrist, hate-filled idolatrous Catholic and Orthodox and prejudiced Protestant wolves in sheeps clothing.

As it happens I'm Australian with German ancestry. So what? My family was Lutheran. Luther was one of the Nazis greatest heroes. Going to that church as a child had turned me right off christianity. What of the commandment that says don't take God's name in vain? This has been one of the sins of the professing christian church. they weren't christian. with their mouth they professed to know him but their heart was far from him. I know too much history to swayed by arguments that we're in the millenium because Europe confessed christianity.

[Guest]

You may have a clear idea of what questions you asked but I don't actually know what you're talking about. I only said I find that the amillenial position that the binding of Satan refers only to the fact that the gospel is preached but that doesn't make any sense on the basis of many verses I quoted and with the evidence of evil in the world - this seems a very limited binding indeed. I know and believe Satan can do no more than God allows - but that is the same as it was in the book of Job. I know he is defeated but that doesn't mean he is bound and cast into the bottomless pit at this time.

Frankly I had not heard of the amillenial position until recently and cannot imagine how anyone could read that into the scriptures. You have to have all sorts of other doctrines to explain the many questions which it raises.

Christ defeated death with His resurrection but that doesn't automatically mean we can escape the death of the flesh.

From what I have gathered from the amillenial position here is that it also means you believe that there is going to be a seven year trib at the end of the age before Christ comes when Satan deceives the nations - I don't believe that either.

sab, you have proven again that you have not done your homework with regards to understanding the definition of amillennialism. I will give you that there are a couple of variations under this ism, but you must have been peering out the window during amill 101. We have tried to show how we believe but you continue to twist it from the perspective of your misunderstanding. You admit it is new to you so for your benefit here is the definition from my point of view:

The name given to the belief that there will not be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ is called amillennialism. We who hold to this belief are called amillennialists. The prefix "a" in amillennialism means "no" or "not." Hence, amillennialism means no millennium. However, we do not believe that there is no millennium at all. We also don't believe in a LITERAL millennium; a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. We believe that Christ is now sitting on the throne of David and that this present Church age is the kingdom over which it was written that the Christ would reign. There is no doubt that Christ now is sitting on the throne, and there is no doubt that Christ now rules, for He is God.

I have already said once that I am not out to convince you but at least try to understand and retain the definition. Maybe we can discuss this further if you would like. I will be away from the computer for many days so I will check in when I return.

[_Sean]

From what I have gathered from the amillenial position here is that it also means you believe that there is going to be a seven year trib at the end of the age before Christ comes when Satan deceives the nations - I don't believe that either.

There may or may not be a tribulation period before Jesus returns, however, I don't know how anyone would know it's duration.

Sean asked if i thought the church and Israel were 2 separate entitities. Yes I do. In Romans 9 to 11 Paul talks about Israel and the church being 2 separate entities. This idea that the church has replaced Israel is the product of church fathers from the anti-Jewish church fathers from the 2nd century onwards. The very thing Paul warned the church not to do in Romans 11. If the Jews reject Christ how can Israel and the church be one and the same? Who are the Jews then? what is this nation called Israel?

Actually, the church is Israel according to the bible itself. Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22 says that the wall that separated Jew and Gentile has been torn down and the two (Jew and Gentile) have become one new man, the body of Christ (the Church) with Jesus as it's head. Romans 11 says that Gentiles are the wild olive shoot grafted onto a Jewish tree, the remnant of believing Israel.

sab, if the bible says that Israel consists of believing Jews and Gentiles as no longer two but one, then why do you say they are separate?

It was Augustine who first came up with the idea that we were in the millenium already because paganism was outlawed (but present in many church traditions like the veneration of idols and the exaltation of Mary to the status of queen of Heaven - the adoration of relics) - the cult of the emperor was swallowed hook line and sinker by the professing church because the emperors SAID they were Christian.

It was not Augustine who first believed in the Amillennial view. You might want to re-check your history.

John Nelson Darby invented Dispensationalism (teaching the church and Israel were separate) in the 1830s. But naming names doesn't prove or disprove anything. We must appeal to the scriptures.

And Sean - I do know that Revelation is written in symbols. But what of verses that are plainly written - I saw a great multitude out of every nation ... (NOT all of Revelation uses symbols)

The rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years was finished... - but according to you this is not a literal 1000 years it is more like 2000 now. This sort of mangling of scriptures is just plain confusing.

So how should we interpret these verses:

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

If Satan is bound what is Revelation 12 talking about then that says Satan is going to persecute the woman. Is it Satan that is personally killing the Jews? (Which is who I identify the woman as - since 'she' gave birth to Christ - the church didn't give birth to Christ) Or did Satan use people as his instruments in his hate for Israel?

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

We know who the offspring of the woman are, they are the ones who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus. These are Christians.

As it happens I'm Australian with German ancestry. So what? My family was Lutheran. Luther was one of the Nazis greatest heroes. Going to that church as a child had turned me right off christianity. What of the commandment that says don't take God's name in vain? This has been one of the sins of the professing christian church. they weren't christian. with their mouth they professed to know him but their heart was far from him. I know too much history to swayed by arguments that we're in the millenium because Europe confessed christianity.

While I'm not fond of Luther, I would caution against judging the motives of another man's heart. Besides, If it weren't for him you might be kissing the pope's feet.