Universalism and the Character of God

[_Rick_C]

Greetings all,

Quick note.
The 1 Timothy 4:10 thread may not be "over" yet....
I just made a "Non-Universalist" post [that I've 'owed' Danny] there,
Look: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?p=25550#25550

BBL here, there, or with that new thread I keep promising.....
Rick

[Guest]

So the question is, can the deaf hear?

"In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the BOOK. And the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.
The HUMBLE also shall increase their joy in the Lord. And the POOR shall rejoice .
In the Holy One of Israel.
For the TERRIBLE ONE is brought to nothing.
The scornful one is consumed.
And all who watch for iniquity are cut off." Isa 29.18-20


So according to Isaiah the deaf will hear in that day and the blind will see in that day.
What day? IMHO this is a picture of judgment day when the great majority of mankind will see and hear CHRIST for the first time. Notice the poor and humble will have joy which sounds similar to the beatitudes.
The TERRIBLE ONE who i think is Satan will be brought to nothing because he will be CONSUMED. Does this sound like the lake of fire?
If some still hate God then perhaps they won't be saved, perhaps they will be in the LOF for as long as God deems.
Isaiah says everyone will hear the words of the book. Which book? IMO it means the gospels , that is the book mentioned on judgment day when it says "and books are opened", i think these books are not a book of works but the gospels being opened and read to the DEAF and BLIND

According to Rick when you're dead and buried you can't hear nor see so how can one be saved after death?
But according to Isaiah "in that day" the deaf will hear and the blind can see.
So is Rick correct or is Jesus who said "with God all things are possible."

[_Rick_C]

Steve,

So according to Isaiah the deaf will hear in that day and the blind will see in that day. What day? IMHO this is a picture of judgment day when the great majority of mankind will see and hear CHRIST for the first time.

That day was fulfilled at the very beginning of Jesus' ministry, Steve, though the year and/or day of the Lord continues today.

Luke 4 (ESV)
6 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."

20And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

1. According to Rick when you're dead and buried you can't hear nor see so how can one be saved after death?

2. But according to Isaiah "in that day" the deaf will hear and the blind can see.

3. So is Rick correct or is Jesus who said "with God all things are possible."

1. Yes, I believe this and it hasn't been demonstrated that the Bible teaches otherwise.

2. Yes. Since the beginning of Jesus' ministry He has opened deaf ears, and healed the blind and the sick.

3. Yes, God can do "all things" that are within His nature, character, and plan to do. Every person God spoke to or through has been alive, and nothing in the Bible says He does or ever will do it in any other way. No "new plan" of His saving dead unbelievers is in Scripture. Therefore, one thing that is impossible for God to do is to save people who have died.

Rick

[Guest]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't think God is going to judge
anyone according to "what they don't know", but rather by what they do know. I think Paul teaches as much in Romans 1-2. Whatever 'light" God has revealed to any people throughout history, His judgements will always be according to His standard of righteousness. So for me, I don't concern myself with a classic "dodge" of unbelievers who will question God's justice by asking, "what about those who've never heard the Gospel"? IMO, God has given light to all people in some measure. The


Bob, Paul is talking about jews here "For though THEY knew God", who is "they" referring to?
But the principal is the same as "we are judged by our works" since Paul is not talking about saving faith only about the level of God's wrath.
You my friend are the dodger because you and your compatriots have your ticket to heaven and if the great majority of man never know Christ then that's less competition for the seats on the heaven train with the best view of the lake of fire.
But thank God the lake of fire won't be the torture chamber that apparently many hope for because when Jesus said to "love your enemies" that was part of the process of being sanctified into HIS IMAGE.
Judgement "krisis" allows for the WHOLE ball of wax.
"KRISIS" allows for punishment, "KRISIS" allows for reconciliation, "KRISIS" allows for proportional justice that GOD can custom fit any situation because God can read our hearts and HIS will can not be stopped from being done, which is why Jesus PRAYED for this very thing.

[Guest]

. Yes, God can do "all things" that are within His nature, character, and plan to do. Every person God spoke to or through has been alive, and nothing in the Bible says He does or ever will do it in any other way. No "new plan" of His saving dead unbelievers is in Scripture. Therefore, one thing that is impossible for God to do is to save people who have died.

You mean Rick that resurrecting people who are dead is not within God's character or power?
You mean when we die our spirits which i believe go to heaven can not be spoken to?
You mean Lazarus was not dead? or even Jesus?
It's not a new plan it's just a work in progress.
BTW "in that day" the devil will be brought to nothing, check your days cause the devil ain't nothing just yet.

[_Rick_C]

I have a personal conviction that it is wrong to ask, "Will God save those who have not heard about Jesus?" For one thing, no Apostle ever asked it. For another, the Apostles died preaching the Gospel because they knew Who can save all people. (I realize this is an aside to the thread and could use a new one, imo. I was going to start a new one on it but haven't had the time). Anyway, this is my deeply held personal conviction on this side-topic...that I don't want to debate.....

Rick

[Guest]

Rick said:

3. Yes, God can do "all things" that are within His nature, character, and plan to do. Every person God spoke to or through has been alive, and nothing in the Bible says He does or ever will do it in any other way. No "new plan" of His saving dead unbelievers is in Scripture. Therefore, one thing that is impossible for God to do is to save people who have died.

You have said more than once that dead can't hear.

The Bible teaches that the dead DO hear, when God speaks to them.

Jesus spoke to a couple of dead people and they immediately responded.

The Bible says that all are alive [to, unto, before] God.

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

(BTW: The verb "live" in verse 38 is in the Present Active Indicate)

And of course, Jesus predicted an hour when the dead would hear Him.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

When God speaks to the dead, they hear Him.

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

You my friend are the dodger because you and your compatriots have your ticket to heaven and if the great majority of man never know Christ then that's less competition for the seats on the heaven train with the best view of the lake of fire.
But thank God the lake of fire won't be the torture chamber that apparently many hope for because when Jesus said to "love your enemies" that was part of the process of being sanctified into HIS IMAGE.

Again I must take exception to personal insult!

[_Rick_C]

Mike,

3. Yes, God can do "all things" that are within His nature, character, and plan to do. Every person God spoke to or through has been alive, and nothing in the Bible says He does or ever will do it in any other way. No "new plan" of His saving dead unbelievers is in Scripture. Therefore, one thing that is impossible for God to do is to save people who have died.

You replied:
You have said more than once that dead can't hear.

And I'll continue saying it till it can be demonstrated that dead people ever have or can become Christians!

The Bible teaches that the dead DO hear, when God speaks to them.

Agreed. But the Bible never talks about physically dead people hearing God and becoming saved.

The Bible has a recurring theme in both Testaments about those who are physically alive but spiritually dead. Once again, these people are alive, though not spiritually.

Jesus spoke to a couple of dead people and they immediately responded.

Yes, He, and they, did! But there's no record of Him speaking to a dead sinner in order to save his or her soul. He physically resurrected Lazarus and we assume Lazarus continued to have faith in God..I mean, REALLY!
The fact that Jesus raised people physically from the dead doesn't support universalism.

The Bible says that all are alive [to, unto, before] God.

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

(BTW: The verb "live" in verse 38 is in the Present Active Indicate)

If you read the entire section, you'll see Jesus was 'debating' Sadducees, refuting their disbelief in a future bodily resurrection. Part of Jesus' 'argument' was: Moses "called the Lord the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" who were physically dead when Moses said it. Jesus is [probably?] also teaching that believers (like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) are spiritually alive, (present, active, indicative) though physically dead; thereby refuting another belief of the Sadducees, that "there is no spiritual existence after death either". Jesus hit them with a proverbial Double Whammy!

And of course, Jesus predicted an hour when the dead would hear Him.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes, when Jesus returns on the Day of Judgment! This is a call to judgment, not a call for or to salvation; excepting the full and final salvation of the righteous, who will receive the complete benefits of their prior salvation then!

When God speaks to the dead, they hear Him.

The Salvation Call:
God, through His Son, speaks the 'word of salvation' to the spiritually dead both now and ever since Jesus said:
John 5 (ESV)
25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

As the Bible says over & over, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" or in Revelation, "let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches!"

Rick

[Guest]

Rick,

I am not trying to say that the Bible explicitly *teaches* that people who are physically dead can be saved. I think the Bible is silent on this topic. (Which to me means that we do not know for sure - at least we cannot assert either that they can or that they cannot based on scriptural assertion).

I was, however, counting your argument that since people have to hear the gospel in order to have faith and be saved, that dead people cannot be saved.

I think the verses I mentioned indicated that just because one has physically died does not preclude the possibility to hear in the future. And if there is a possibility to hear in the future, I do not think you can use Rom. 10 to "prove" that they cannot find faith even though they have died.

Blessings,
Mike