Hey brother Todd,
Here's one.
Matt 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
According to this passage it would begin before some standing there would die. That was a long time ago. I realize that you may associate this with 70AD, but it may have a broader application than that, and may not be reffering to 70AD at all. I see nothing in the surrounding context that would hint that it is. In fact, the preceding verses speak of becoming a disciple.
I do associate it with 70ad. I think that the "hint" is that these people are said to be alive, (or at least some of them) when it happens.
This is very similar to Jesus' statement in Matt. 10:23, which is basically the same thing. The "it" that begins is not the judgement of the world, but but a certain people "being rewarded for their works" i.e. punished. Which I said happens in this life. He did, in fact, "come" before some of those which were standing there tasted death, and He did as He said He would.
John 12:31-32
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.
Here Jesus speaks of His death on the cross. In some sense the judgment of the world happened (or began) at the cross. This verse, and its meaning, probably deserves its own thread, but suffice it to say, whatever judgment this is referring to, happened before the resurrection.
I don't think that His meaning was that the world was being judged in the sense that you are taking it. I think that the judgement being made, is who will rule the world.
The judgement of the world, in the sense that we are discussing, is said to happen on the "last day". Jesus said that He "didn't come to judge the world, but to save it".
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
I will admit that I haven't studied the verses you mentioned in depth, but I don't see how that could be the meaning. And again, I stated in my last post, that God does judge people in this life, but this is a wholey other kind of judgement. It is more akin to punishment.
Setting aside the judgment for the moment, I thought we were discussing "death" and if there were any scriptures which relate to death occuring after the resurrection. All I was trying to point out is that there are two kinds of death discussed in scripture prior to Revelation - one is physical and the other is spiritual. There is no mention of another kind of death that I am aware of.
I don't agree with your understanding of the two types of death. As I said, I think that they both have physical and spiritual aspects.
One last thing. You have stated that Rev 20:13 is speaking of the physical resurrection. It didn't use the word "resurrection" but I will admit it kind of sounds like resurrection language. But you have affirmed that the NT is full of resurrection language that is referring spiritual resurrection. How do we know that this verse is speaking of physical resurrection? Just a few verses earlier in the same chapter is talking about spiritual resurrection, right? Also, notice when they appear for the judgment it says that they are "dead". If they had been raised physically wouldn't they be alive?
Kind of sounds like? Really? Kind of? I don't know what else to say....
How do we know that this verse is speaking of physical resurrection?
Because people who were in their graves were brought out of them.
Also, notice when they appear for the judgment it says that they are "dead". If they had been raised physically wouldn't they be alive?
We've already been over this on another thread. I couldn't find it though.
They are called the "dead" because they were just brought out of their graves. It wouldn't make any sense to call them the living. How else would John show, without mentioning beforehand, that these are people who have been resurrected?
Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
It could be that these are "spiritually" dead as are those today who are outside of Christ and they are being judged according to their works.
Again, there is nowhere in scripture where we are judged, after being given spiritual life (spiritually resurrected). There are, as I have stated, and you have shown, verses that speak of judgement, as in "punishment" ("rewarding according to works") but that's different. There are however, many mentions of the last judgement, with all of mankind before God being judged. I don't know what else this could be. It depicts that perfectly. Just like in John 5:28-29. (I know that you don't agree with my interpretation of those verses).
I don't even think that it "could" mean that. Nor does anyone else besides you, that I'm aware of. Perhaps I'm wrong, I would like to know. Of course that doesn't prove that you're wrong. You could be the only person that believes it, and be right.
If this is the case, the "second death" would be referring to the condemnation of the Holy Spirit. After all, we are told that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire. The firey aspect of this Baptism may be the "second death". Being "cast into" the LOF is akin to being "given over" to uncleaness, vile passions, and a debased mind per Romans 1:24, 26, 28.
Think about it: if you're cast into a lake, isn't that similar to a baptism?
I think that you're misinterpreting what the "fire" is here. Jesus is speaking of punishment. He is not saying that it's part of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
He is saying that He will baptize some in the Holy Spirit, but those that reject Him will receive the baptism of fire. Read it in context.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Compare this with Joel 2:28-32, quoted as being fulfilled in Acts 2.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
I think this is a reference to the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on those that call upon the name of the Lord, and the judgement that would come on the Jews that rejected their Messiah in AD70 (this is apocalyptic language that can easily be demonstrated to symbolize the judgement of God). It is speaking of the physical death and destruction wrought in Jereusalem in 70Ad. In both case we have the pouring out of the Holy Spirit mentioned with judgement.
I must say, there are so many other doctrines that we each bring to this discussion. Our wildly different interpretations of many pertinent texts bears witness to this fact. To come to any kind of a conclusion we would have to sort all of that out. I don't see it happening. But we can keep trying! It's fun.
For instance, what's your view on the millinium? That drastically affects how one interprets the sequence of events in Rev. 20; 11ff. If the millinium is the church age, then this "resurrection" happens at the end of it (which means the second death happens at the end of time, as opposed to
before the first death). Which lends great stregth to the idea that this is the resurrection at the end of time. In fact, all of the views (post-, pre-, a-) would place it at the end! How do you see the millenium, and how does this being a "spiritual resurrection" fit with your view? I don't want to debate the millenium, but I am curious to know how your view of 20:11ff works out in all that.
God bless you,
