What Church Do You Go To?

[Guest]

Hi Rae,
I think it's a good article & hopefully should at least make people pause & think of the meaning, next time they hear or use the word 'church'.

I really like the phrase "we are a part of the Church that meets at so & so's house", & intend to try it out. Having left the institutional ?church, it can be a bit hard to know how to initially respond to the usually innocent question.

Just one comment on the NT usage;
1 Cor 14:19 - "however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind,......"
- to me this sounds like Paul was specifically referring to a meeting of the people rather than just the people. Although I could be wrong.

[Guest]

The Greek word ekklesia means "[the] called out ones".

I sometimes meet with these other people who are Called Out too in this building that's listed in the yellow pages as "Russel Road Christian Center, a United Methodist Church".....

Nice folks. You should give em a call some time, jk,

[Guest]

To help out, I thought I would post some Bible dictionary defintions of the word Church.

Smith’s Bible Dictionary

The derivation of the word is generally said to be from the Greek kuriakon (kuriakon) "belonging to the Lord." But the derivation has been too hastily assumed. It is probably connected with kirk , the Latin circus, circulus, the Greek kuklos (kuklos) because the congregations were gathered in circles.
Ecclesia (ekklesia) the Greek word for church, originally meant an assembly called out by the magistrate, or by legitimate authority. It was in this last sense that the word was adapted and applied by the writers of the New Testament to the Christian congregation.

Harper’s Bible Dictionary

The English translation of a Greek word (ekklesia) meaning “assembly” or “gathering”. The word does not normally appear in English translations of the OT. In the Greek translation of the OT (the Septuagint), two main words are used for the People of God: assembly (ekklesia) and synagogue (synagoge). Since Jews in the first century used the latter term, the first Greek speaking Christians selected the former in order to show that their roots lay in the OT and they continued the OT people of God.

Easton Bible Dictionary

We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament:
(1.) It is translated “assembly” in the ordinary classical sense (Act_19:32, Act_19:39, Act_19:41).
(2.) It denotes the whole body of the redeemed, all those whom the Father has given to Christ, the invisible catholic church (Eph_5:23, Eph_5:25, Eph_5:27, Eph_5:29; Heb_12:23).
(3.) A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an eccesia (Rom_16:5; Col_4:15).
(4.) All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church (Act_13:1); so also we read of the “church of God at Corinth” (1Co_1:2), “the church at Jerusalem” (Act_8:1), “the church of Ephesus” (Rev_2:1), etc.
(5.) The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world (1Co_15:9; Gal_1:13; Mat_16:18 ) are the church of Christ.

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Smith's definition "an assembly called out by the magistrate, or by legitimate authority" seems to imply that this word was not used to describe a random assembly of people but rather a group officially "called" by a magistrate. In the same sense we are an official assembly called in Christ's name. Whether a home assembly or the entire assembly in heaven and earth.

[Guest]

Even though I haven't posted back on this thread yet, I have been pondering the various posts on this topic for the past couple of weeks.

It seems that if the word "ekklesia" just means an official assembly called by one in authority, then we could say, "the local public high school had a church meeting this morning to inform the children of the necessity of condoms." That just doesn't seem right. But yet, they were "called out" of their classes, by someone in authority, into an assembly with one another.

[Guest]

It seems that if the word "ekklesia" just means an official assembly called by one in authority, then we could say, "the local public high school had a church meeting this morning to inform the children of the necessity of condoms." That just doesn't seem right. But yet, they were "called out" of their classes, by someone in authority, into an assembly with one another.

Would this "seem right"?

About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way. For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen. These he gathered together, with the workmen of like occupation, and said, "Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth. And you see and hear that not only at Ephesus but almost throughout all Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable company of people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may count for nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship."

When they heard this they were enraged, and cried out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!"

So the city was filled with the confusion; and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Paul’s companions in travel. Paul wished to go in among the crowd, but the disciples would not let him; some of the Asiarchs also, who were friends of his, sent to him and begged him not to venture into the theater.

Now some cried one thing, some another; for the church was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together. Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, wishing to make a defense to the people.

But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all with one voice cried out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!"

And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky? Seeing then that these things cannot be contradicted, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rash. For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess. If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against any one, the courts are open, and there are roconsuls; let them bring charges against one another. But if you seek anything further, it shall be settled in the regular church. For we are in danger of being charged with rioting today, there being no cause that we can give to justify this commotion."

And when he had said this, he dismissed the church.

After the uproar ceased, Paul sent for the disciples and having exhorted them took leave of them and departed for Macedonia. Acts 19:23-20:1

Of course in this passage, none of the translators translate "ekklāsia" as "church"; they translate it as "assembly". So why not always translate it that way? I believe the reason is that the religious authorities of the middle ages insisted that the King James translators translate it as "church" whenever it referred to assemblies of Christians. In that way there were able to pass on their various religious systems to their successors (since the word "church" was written in the Bible).

And so the religious "church" word has continued right to our day.

[Guest]

Hi Rae,

My Webster's says the word "church" is from the old English cirice which is from the Greek kyriakon/kyriakos, of the lord or from kyrios--lord, master. While some in the government schools may see themselves as lord over your children, I believe they would be unlikely to see the need to go beyond simply saying they had an assembly or a meeting.

livingink

[Guest]

My Webster's says the word "church" is from the old English cirice which is from the Greek kyriakon/kyriakos, of the lord or from kyrios--lord, master. While some in the government schools may see themselves as lord over your children, I believe they would be unlikely to see the need to go beyond simply saying they had an assembly or a meeting.

I would agree that "church" would not be the best word to use for a school assembly since the word derives from byzantine Greek word "kuire" meaning "belonging to the lord". Unfortunately, as Paidion pointed out, this is likely not the best word to use when translating ekklesia into English. Although the word "church" does accurately describe Christians, the best word would be "assembly" (although, I don't know if we have a precise enough word to describe the particular kind of assembly....for example when we use the word "council" we have an immediate idea of what the nature of the meeting or assembly would entail....in first century Rome I’m sure there was a common understanding of the word ekklesia as well).

In translations into other languages they properly based their translated word on "ekklesia".....unlike the English who, for some reason, based it on "kurike".

Here are a few examples

French - eglise
Spanish - iglesia
Italian – chiesa


Here’s an interesting quote from William Barklay

“In the great classical days in Athens the ekklesia was the convened assembly of the people. It consisted of all the citizens of the city who had not lost their civic rights. Apart from the fact that it’s decisions must confirm to the laws of the State, its powers were to all intents and purposes unlimited. It elected and dismissed magistrates and directed the policy of the city. It declared war, made peace, contracted treaties and arranged alliances. It elected generals and other military officers. It assigned troops to different campaigns and dispatched them from the city. It was ultimately responsible of all military operations. It raised and allocated funds. Two things are interesting to note. First, all its meeting began with prayer and sacrifice. Second, it was a true democracy…..It was an assembly where everyone and an equal right and an equal duty to take part..”

I think this quote helps us get a better glimpse into what an ekklesia was. It also made me think more about what Jesus said in Matt 16:18. Could he have been thinking of this type of secular assembly when he said “I will build MY church(ekklesia)”?

[Guest]

I think this quote helps us get a better glimpse into what an ekklesia was. It also made me think more about what Jesus said in Matt 16:18. Could he have been thinking of this type of secular assembly when he said “I will build MY church(ekklesia)”?

Of course, ekklesia was also the word that the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT from about 200BC) used for the congregation of Israel.

[Guest]

Conclusion:

"Ekklāsia" may refer either to a religious assembly (Jewish or Christian)
or to a non-religious assembly (such as a civic assembly).

[Guest]

Making the assumption that Jesus' church was a continuation of the assembly in the desert, he was saying that he was taking his place as head of that assembly. In Jewish thought, only God could head that assembly. As a result, it could be seen as a claim by Jesus to be God.

But, I'm diverting Rae's thread. Sorry.

livingink