Romans 8:29-30: how do you interperet it?

[Guest]

Rom 8:29 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

[Guest]

I think most of us have been influenced by Augustinian-Calvinist thought. I certainly was, and according to my way of thinking in my early twenties, God knew everyone who was going to be saved, and had predestined them for heaven before the world was. What I couldn’t understand in those days, is why Paul talked about being “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son”. After all, becoming Christ-like is a process in which we may choose to participate or not, so how could God have predestined us for that before the foundation of the world?

But in the same decade, God showed me the falsity of Calvinism, and I repented of it. Since that time, and after studying the words of this passage as they are used elsewhere in the New Testament, I came to see it quite differently.

First, the words “foreknow” and “foreknowledge”. As a Calvinist, I believed that only God could foreknow something, since He is omniscient. The rest of us can only predict, based on the evidence we have, but can never know in advance. I thought God’s foreknowledge was His ability to know in advance every event which will happen, and in particular to know whom He is going to save from hell and for heaven.

But I came to see that there is also another meaning of “foreknow”. According to Acts 26:5, the Jews foreknew Paul! The very same word is used in that passage, and it certainly doesn’t mean that the Jews knew in advance what Paul was going to do or what Paul was going to become. Then what does it mean? Let’s look at it:

So then my manner of life from youth, having been in my nation and in Jerusalem from the beginning, all the Jews know, foreknowing me from the first (if they are willing to testify) that according to strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee. Acts 26:4,5

The word seems to mean no more than the fact that the Jews were well acquainted with Paul’s past life as a Jewish Pharisee. Then why is the word “foreknowing” used? Simply that the Jews knew these facts about Paul before his present life began, his life as a disciple of Christ.

I wonder if this is not precisely the meaning in the passage in question. God knew all about the lives of Christ’s disciples before they became disciples. He knew from their choices their potential as disciples, and therefore pre-appointed (not “predestined”) them to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is, he appointed them for that process before they entered into it. But that doesn’t mean they were predestined for that process. It is not inevitable that they will go that route. When a person has an appointment, he does not necessarily keep that appointment. The Greek word (in Roman characters) is “proörizō”. Again we have the prefix “pro” (“before”) and “horizō”, which literally means “to mark out the boundaries or limits” (The English word “horizon” is derived from “horizō”). While lexicons give “appoint” as a meaning of this word, it may mean more than that. Perhaps God somehow “marks out the boundaries” of a disciple’s walk in a way that influences him strongly to walk in the way of becoming Christ-like. In any case, it does not entail a forcing of the will. Analogously, a wise parent might “mark out the boundaries” for his child’s actions in such a way that the child is guided in going a particular way. Yet the child can choose within those boundaries, and possibly, to their detriment, may choose even step outside them.

Those whom He pre-appointed he also called. Called to what? Are they not called to fulfill that appointment? To become Christ-like? Those whom God called, he also made righteous (possibly “showed to be righteous”). For those who are on the narrow road, moving in the direction of Christ-likeness and perfection are righteous in God’s sight even now. For “He who began a good work in you will continue the process of completing it until the day of Jesus Christ.” This process which God began is so sure that He says that those whom he called he also made righteous and those whom he made righteous, he also glorified. It is clear that we are not yet fully righteous, and have not yet been glorified. But we have begun to be righteous, and are moving on to perfection. We have begun to be glorified. All of these verbs are in the aorist tense. That tense is used not only for actions which have been completed in the past, but also for actions which have been begun in the past and have continued, and may continue into the future.

All of these actions of God describe the sequence of processing the character of Christ’s disciples with a view to perfection (completion) even to the point of glorification. We are even to seek glory from God [Romans 2:7].

The verses which precede this passage also support this interpretation:

I count the sufferings of the present time are not worthy [to be compared] with the glory to be revealed into us. For the creation eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to purposelessness, not willingly but because of the one subjecting it in hope; because of which also the creation itself will be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in labour until now; and not only so, but also we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the spirit, groan inwardly eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope which is seen is not hope. For does anyone also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it.

Now similarly the spirit shares in our weakness; for we do not know the thing for which it is necessary to pray, but the spirit itself supplicates on our behalf with unutterable groanings. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because the spirit supplicates on behalf of the saints in keeping with God. And we know that to the ones loving God, God works together everything for good to those being called according to purpose. Because those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. Now those whom he pre-appointed he also called; and those whom he called he also made righteous; and those whom he made righteous he also glorified. Romans 8:18-30
Many suppose that “all things” that ever happen, work together for good for the called ones who love God, or that God works “all things” which ever happen together for good. Does God work the murder of our spouse or the rape of our little daughter as part of his plan to bring about good? Or part of his plan to fulfill some greater purpose? I don’t think so!

Rather, in this passage, Paul speaks about God working together all things within those called ones who love him. For in the next two sentences, he immediately describes that inner working in terms of the progressive work of God from the point of his foreknowledge of the called ones right to their glorification.

Paul seems to have said a similar thing about this inner work of God in the following passage:

I am persuaded of this very thing, that the one having begun a good work in you will complete [it] until [the] day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

The phrase “complete it until” seems strange in English. But the idea seems to be that God will continue the process of completing that good work within Christ’s disciples until the time of Christ’s return, when the finishing touches will be put on the process.

[Guest]

I would like to add that in the bible the word "knew" is use to refer to "relationship" such as in Gen.4:1 "1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."

In the context the meaning of the word "knew" is relationship . and there are different types of relationships but in this passage the word knew means having a sexual relationship. In Romans 8:29 the word knew is also use to refer to relationship and the type of relationship is Father and child relationship. Therefore when Paul used the word foreknew he is saying that God has a relationship with us even from before we were created because in his foreknowledge He knew us ( relationship) but this does not mean that He foreknown our salvation because God will be violating our free choice if He decided to know the outcome of our salvation. Us refers to all of us because a newly born child is sinless and therefore is saved and if he is saved it only means that he has a relationship with God.So every individual had a relationship with God from the time we were conceived. Now God also predestined or appointed every new born baby to be conformed in the image of Christ. On God's part He predestined us to be with Christ but what about on our part are we going to accept the destiny that God has given us. Remember we were created to have a 2 way relationship with God which means that we are free to respond to God in negative or positive way. The Big question is this: "are we going to accept our destiny" ?

[Guest]

Thanks Paidion. Greg Boyd says the following on this:

One of the greatest treasures given to believers when they open their hearts to the Lord is the promise that they shall certainly be “conformed to the image of [God’s] son.” However much we may struggle with sin in this present age, we may know that if we continue to trust in Jesus we will someday be like Jesus. This much is predestined for us.

But what does Paul mean when he says that this Christ-likeness is predestined for those “whom [God] foreknew?” Some argue that this suggests that God knows from all eternity who will and will not believe in Jesus. Unfortunately, the verse actually contradicts their view. Paul is referring to a specific group of people—those “whom [God] foreknew...” This group obviously contrasts with a group of people whom God did not foreknow. If the classical doctrine of foreknowledge is correct, however, God foreknows everything from all eternity. How then can Paul speak about a particular group of people whom he foreknew?

To understand the verse correctly we have to remember that the concept of “knowing someone” was often equivalent to “loving someone” in Jewish culture. To “foreknow” someone was thus to “love them ahead of time.” This is exactly how Paul uses the term two chapters later when he says, “God has not rejected his people [Israel] whom he foreknew” (11:2). We may thus conclude that just as God loved the nation of Israel ahead of time, so God loved the Church ahead of time. He predestined this group of people “to be conformed to the image of his Son.” Note that what is loved ahead of time in both Romans 8:29 and 11:2 is a corporate body, not particular individuals. When individuals freely accept the conditions of participating in that corporate body, all that is true of that body becomes true of them. They are now part of the body that was loved ahead of time by God and predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. But whether or not they would freely decide to align themselves with this body was neither foreknown nor predestined.