EDF and Conditional Security

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:54 am

I've been thinking on something, and I am beginning to question whether or not Exhaustive Definite Forknowledge of the future is compatible with conditional security. For example, if God foreknows all things, and there truly has been individuals that recieved salvation, individuals who got their names written in the book of life, why did God save them and write their names in the book of life if he already knew they would apostasize and he would have to erase their names from the book? Why save such individuals in the first place?

Also, why convict and strive towards bringing individuals to repentance and faith/reconciliation if he already knew these individuals would never yield to him? If God does foreknow that these individuals will never believe, can he be sincere in His conviction/influence in their lives with the purpose of reconciling them?

Post by **_Steve** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:13 am

Difficult questions. I never have quite known how to answer them, though I have not found the easy answer (openness theology) to answer all the biblical data adequately.

Post by **_Allyn** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:13 am

SoaringEagle, in a way the same could be asked concerning the jews. How is it that they were once the natural branches before the Gospel but then were removed due to unbelief in the Gospel? How is it that they were ever on the tree in the first place? Surely the prophets wrote of the coming Savior? How is it that their lack of understanding did not cast them off? It seems to me that no decision was required for them to remain but once they made affirmation or denial then that is when God either allowed them to remain or removed them.

Am I making any sense here? I will think this through some more but maybe you are following me.

Post by **__id_1302** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 am

Our limited understanding of "first this, next that" is bound to the natural realm that includes a dimension of time.

Briefly, I believe that God exists in a spiritual realm that is greater than the natural realm. No one would know how long a year was unless God created the physical sun and put the earth in place to make its yearly orbit.

God has no beginning and no end. He created this little blip of time for our benefit, but He is not bound by it. From His point of view all time is visible at once, but just because He knows the outcome of each person's life, it does not mean that choices do not matter. If a race is not run there is no outcome, so every race must still be run, every life must still be lived, and every choice must still be made.

God's foreknowledge is not control. It is just the difference in being God and looking at our lives from outside our time bound existence.

It makes sense to me.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:54 pm

that's CS Lewis's explanation as well, Laz. it always satisfied me too.

TK

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:34 pm

SoaringEagle, in a way the same could be asked concerning the jews. How is it that they were once the natural branches before the Gospel but then were removed due to unbelief in the Gospel? How is it that they were ever on the tree in the first place? Surely the prophets wrote of the coming Savior? How is it that their lack of understanding did not cast them off? It seems to me that no decision was required for them to remain but once they made affirmation or denial then that is when God either allowed them to remain or removed them.

Am I making any sense here? I will think this through some more but maybe you are following me.

Sorry Allyn. I can't say that I'm following you, and I'm not sure what connection this may have with the EDF/Eternal Now view.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:42 pm

Our limited understanding of "first this, next that" is bound to the natural realm that includes a dimension of time. Briefly, I believe that God exists in a spiritual realm that is greater than the natural realm. No one would know how long a year was unless God created the physical sun and put the earth in place to make its yearly orbit.

God has no beginning and no end. He created this little blip of time for our benefit, but He is not bound by it. From His point of view all time is visible at once, but just because He knows the outcome of each person's life, it does not mean that choices do not matter. If a race is not run there is no outcome, so every race must still be run, every life must still be lived, and every choice must still be made.

God's foreknowledge is not control. It is just the difference in being God and looking at our lives from outside our time bound existence.

It seems to me that you are explaining the Eternal Now view. As much as I appreciate that, as you have done a fairly good job in your explaination of it, I don't see how it answers my questions. So, are the names in the book of life that will soon be erased in our time both in it and not in it since past, present, and future is presently before God? Why write their names and save them in time if he knows they will apostasize causing Him to erase their names? Why strive towards reconciling the wicked if He knows they will resist Him everytime? Are His attempts towards them genuinely sincere?

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:55 am

SoaringEagle,

You might find this article interesting:

[Does God Have an Eraser?]

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:35 am

I don't see how it answers my questions. So, are the names in the book of life that will soon be erased in our time both in it and not in it since past, present, and future is presently before God? Why write their names and save them in time if he knows they will apostasize causing Him to erase their names? Why strive towards reconciling the wicked if He knows they will resist Him everytime? Are His attempts towards them genuinely sincere

Long time ago I read a fiction story. The characters of the story are the ff:
a) Largemouth Bass - He is the most and only powerful in the universe,
He is all knowing.
b) Smallmouth Bass- he is the son of Largemouth.
c) Bluegill- He is their spirit
d) Carp- They are the equivalent of angels in our day.
e) Catfish- they are a group of living things with soul.
f) Whale - They are another group of living things with soul also.

One fish day Largemouth Bass was strolling along his garden with his son and spirit they were having fun enjoying each others company but Largemouth said to his son and spirit it is boring I want to create another living things to fill our kingdom and so that we can have a relationship with them and have fun with them also.
Therefore he created the carps. They (Largemouth, smallmouth and bluegill) had a wonderful relatinship with the carps and they enjoy each others company.
One day Largemouth said to his son (smallmouth) and spirit (bluegill) I want to create another set of living things to fill the earth and so that we can also have a relationship with them but I am going to create them so that there will be one way relationship between us and them. The son asked his father what do you mean by one way relationship and the father replied to his son: Do you remember last time when one of the carps organize a mutinee against us? Well I don't want that to happen again therefore I will create another set of living things so that they don't have a free will which means that I will program them so that they will never reject us. Therefore Largemouth created the catfish
and their relationship with the catfish is one way relationship which also means that the catfish can only respond to Largemouth according to the way they were programmed. One afternoon Largemouth asked the catfish to make him a coffee and indeed the catfish did it just the way he was programmed. Largemouth asked the catfish again to dance and indeed the catfish did it. Finally Largemouth asked the catfish to show his love to Him
and the catfish did everything he was programmed to do repeatedly without mistakes. Then Largemouth said to his son( smallmouth) and spirit(bluegill) there is no way for us to know if this catfish truly loves us because he has no other choice but to love us that is the way I programmed him.
Then the Largemouth said I will create another living things but this time it will be a 2 way relationship and they will have a free will which means that they can reject me but our interactions will be both ways. Therefore the whale was created. The Largemouth said that because I love them so much I will give them all the tools and resources they need including the life of my only son so that they will be able to defeat temptations. I want them to respond to me according to their true feelings. Because I am all knowing I will choose to know everything from beginning to end except the outcome of their salvation. Therefore with my foreknowledge I will choose not to know the outome of their salvation. The only time I will know that they are save is when I see them in my kingdom.

The moral of the story is that God wants to have a 2 way relationship with us in which we can show our true feelings toward him and the only way to do that is for us to have a free will but at the same time God did not plan for us to fall that is why he gave everything we need including the life of his only son so that we remain victorious against temptations. Also the bible was never specific in saying that God in his foreknowledge chose to know the outcome of our salvations but rather the bible has given us indications that God in his foreknowledge intended to know everything except the outcome of our salvations.