Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

Steve wrote:

We allow all kinds of wild beliefs to be defended here, so long as there appears to be a respect for scripture in the presentation.

I have noticed this for some time but I thought I was the only one....

1. ...who defends wild beliefs. Or

2. ...who noticed.

(Complete the sentence)

[Guest]

Yes, I believe that parents of a child who will not listen to them, should be brought to the elders and stoned to death.

Perhaps you should meditate on the parable of the prodigal child, where the father ran to embrace the the son with hugs and kisses. Thus, the father was openly declaring that no one was going to harm him in any way, whether by hand or stone. We can conclude that this was not only out of affection, but also for the son's protection.

[Guest]

Personally I am a pro-grace guy. After all if we weren't under grace I would be the only one left on earth - I don't like lonliness.

[Guest]

Yeah Allyn, unless one of your kids is rebellious...

dmatic,

I, along with many here, have been following this exchange and have been trying to make sense out of what you are saying. It seems to me that not only do you ignore tons of scripture to focus on your favorite verse, Matthew 5:19, but your own statements are sometimes contradictory. Perhaps this is because you have limited time on the computer you use and don't proofread as carefully as you might. You made this statement which caused an uproar:

Yes, I believe that parents of a child who will not listen to them, should be brought to the elders and stoned to death.

Taken as written, you are calling for the execution of the parents, but the surrounding sentences seem to indicate that you meant the execution of the child:

I answered this earlier when I was answering Paidion's questions. Yes, I believe that parents of a child who will not listen to them, should be brought to the elders and stoned to death. I made a comment about the Omaha Mall shooter, that if his parents had done this, then eight innocent people would still be alive today. The shooter, a 17 or 18 or 19 year old, is dead anyway. Who knows, but God, how many other "kids" he infected with his thoughts?

This is just one of the confusing things you've written; and this particular one probably can be chalked up to poor proofreading.

[Guest]

Indeed, Michelle! Thank you for the correction. I am guilty as charged of not proofreading. I'll try to be more careful. I'm not a very good typist either.

A number of you have expressed shock, disbelief and/or disdain because I believe the Word of God above the opinions of men. Some even suggested that i am not Christian, because I believe His word. This seemed strange to me, but then it dawned on me that maybe some of you have not even read, let alone studied, God's Law. I will quote the passage that seems to have many upset, which can be found at Deut. 21:18-21 "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that when they have chastened him, he will not harken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city , and unto the gates of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, 'This, our son, is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutten, and a drunkard.' And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones that he die; so shalt thou put evil away from among you: and all Israel shall hear and fear."

Some of you, in a sense, have called God repugnant, and have shown disdain for His Word. It shocks you that I believe Him. It nearly shocks me that you don't, but it has been prophesied. Paul says in Timothy that one of the signs of the perilous times will be that children are disobedient to parents (2 Tim. 3:2) and another that some would be unwilling to endure sound doctrine, as they turn from the truth to fables. (2 Tim. 4:3)

God's Word is truth. (John 17:17) His law is truth. (Ps. 119:142) His judgments are true and righteous altogether. (Ps. 19:9) The "All scripture" to which Paul mentions at 2 Tim. 3:15-17 particularly refers to the so-called "Old Testament".

you may say that you are disagreeing with me, about my belief that God authored and meant Deut 21...but it would seem that your argument is with Him...if you do not agree with this instruction.

you may not respect me, nor my advice, but I will offer it anyway...I advise you who disagree with God to reconsider your position. Consider Abraham, who believed God and it was counted toward him as righteousness.

I truly hope that you find peace with God.

dmatic

[Guest]

Thank you Steve, for answering my questions. I note that you feel at liberty to do what ever feels good to you about some things that God has given specific commands regarding. This is akin to a big problem with the children of Israel....every man doing what was right in his own eyes.

You have often expressed that you don't receive my explanation for your objections to my position, because you think Paul agrees with you.

There is, it seems, much confusion as to what Paul actually taught about God's Law.

Did he teach that it was put away...or annulled? Or did he teach that man's additions and subtractions from it was to be put away?

hopefully, his statement at Romans 3:31 will show that he was in agreement with Jesus when he said: "Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the Law." So, unless Paul was schitzophrenic, his teachings must be consistent with this general summary statement about the Law of God. Through faith, we establish the Law. This agrees with Jesus' statement about the law at Mt 5:17-19: "Do not think I have come to make void the Law, or to annul it, but to make it full...to preach it fully...(magnifying it and showing us the spiritual nature of the Law) Truly, I say unto you: Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law til it is all being fulfilled. Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

These two statements, one from Jesus, and the other from Paul, show agreement.

Some confusion comes when people misunderstand paul's seeming contradiction with himself...i.e. saying in one place (Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.") while just a chapter further in the same letter, (Rom. 3:20 saying "Therefore, by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight.")

James agrees with Paul's first statement above where he says at James 1:22-25 "But, be ye doers of the Law and not hearers only..."

And further in chapter two..."Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." He may have been trying to address some that had misunderstood Paul's earlier statement that a man is justified by faith alone...

Anyway, I'll try to continue this at another time Steve. Feel free to jump in if any of this so far, does not meet with your approval, or is you have questions. Thanks.

Pece, dmatic

[Guest]

Dmatic-

you havent addressed the NT story of the prodigal son, or the woman caught in the act of adultery.

Please tell us how you interpret those passages.

TK

[Guest]

A number of you have expressed shock, disbelief and/or disdain because I believe the Word of God above the opinions of men.

It is not your belief in the word of God that causes this disdain, but rather, your belief that people under the new covenant gain the approval of God by stoning their children. God's covenant with Israel had many facets, as Steve has pointed out. One of those facets was governmental, not moral. This was to keep the Israelites from adopting the practices of the pagan nations around them. In the first covenant, certain foods were forbidden but Jesus declared that all foods were clean. So you don't disagree with us so much as you disagree with Jesus. Good luck with that one.

Regarding having respect for the word of God, you are in the company of people who have more respect for it than yourself. How so? Beause many of us have shown you where you disagree with the plain words of Jesus and you don't seem to mind. I'm afraid there's not much more we can say to you at this point. Perhaps you just have a lack of reading comprehension or some other mental and or learning disorder. If that's the case then I believe there is hope for you. If you are able minded then I fear for you.

[Guest]

Well dmatic, with all due respect I think that you should practice what you preach. I believe our laws will take care of that issue quite nicely.

[Guest]

Dmatic wrote:

hopefully, his statement at Romans 3:31 will show that he was in agreement with Jesus when he said: "Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the Law."

First of all the context of Romans 3 is about justification through faith and not by law or works. In verse 27 Paul said that we can not boast because we can never be justified in Christ through the Law or works but by faith alone. Now verse 31 is linked to the previous verses, Paul is saying that by havng faith in Christ we establish the law. In short Paul is saying that
In order to be justified all you have to do is to have faith in Christ when you have faith in Christ we establish the law. When you establish the law you fulfill the law therefore there is no need to do the ritual laws in the O.T. WHY? Because the law has already been established when we have faith in Christ. Now you can do and follow hundreds of law in the O.T. but you won't recieve any merit or credit for that because the law has already been establish when we put our faith in Christ.

Matthew 5:17-18

Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law and the prophets but to fulfill it and He even said that Even Heaven and earth pass away but
the law will never pass away not until it is fulfill.
Now very carefully let us analyze the passage.

a) Jesus did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it.
When did Jesus fulfilled the law? He fulfilled the law in His death and ressurection therefore it is fulfilled.

b) till heaven and earth pass away, one 2jot or one 3tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
If heaven and earth pass away right now can the law pass away too. Sure it can because the law has been fulfilled in the Death and ressurection of Christ. Not only it can pass away with heaven and earth but it already passed away in the death and ressurection of Christ.
Therefore the law has been fulfilled in the death and ressurection of Christ.