those who bless Israel are blessed....

[Guest]

It seems like when the United States is involved in anything trying to work toward Israel letting the non-Jews in the occupied territories live in something better than big concentration camps, the Christian Zionists begin ranting about how President Bush is forcing Israel to do something that will cause God to pour wrath on the United States. Does anyone have a Scriptural response to this?

Thank you.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

[Guest]

I think it is good to look at the bigger picture rather than on America's perceived present woes. I'm sure there are some there but having spent half my life in the Philippines ... In the overall scheme of things America is still the most powerful nation on earth with a quality of life that is still envied by a very large chunk of the earth's population.

I was in a church that denied that the Jews were Israel at all. It was so far from being blessed it isn't funny. I was in that church for some 20 years and despite the fact that all I heard about the Jews was negative I saw what the Bible had to say about Israel and I looked at history. No nation has ever blessed the Jews as much as the United States has. The blessing for blessing and cursing for cursing that is in Genesis 12 and Numbers 24:9 is not dependent on their obedience to God. In any event as Christians we are called to bless and not curse our 'enemies'. And Paul said that Israel was our enemy for the gospel's sake but beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Many Jews have a negative impression of Christianity because of the way it was presented to them for centuries. That has been changing in the last 40 years to a large extent because of the way American Christians have treated them.

I think it is possible that the U.S will turn against Israel one day - immediately before Armageddon. When anti-Semitism was high in America during the 1930s the stock market crashed. Then you had troubles. One thing is certain in my mind - from studying history - any nation that lays a hand on Israel will come undone. In Exodus it was Egypt, then the Assyrians, the Romans the Byzantines. The 1st Crusaders slaughtered Jewish communities on their way to the Holy Land and themselves fell by the sword before they reached it. The Brits lost their empire quick as a flash after World War 2 - they gave the Jews wanting to go to Israel a hard time. Germany was bombed to the ground and yet after blessing Israel involuntarily in the post war years experienced and economic miracle in the 1960s. Russia... has historically been violently anti-semitic - their history is horrible. how many millions died in Stalin's purges? the civil war there between 1918 and 1921 and then millions more in World War 2. Now the Islamic nations are going full tilt cursing Israel - spurred on by the lies of Protocols of the Elders of Zion and their book. In 2003 the president of Malaysia was calling on all Muslims to unite and drive Israel into the sea.

Other countries around the globe are wracked by coups, civil wars and economic troubles on a scale far greater than yours. Doesn't it say in scripture that the earth itself will groan under her inhabitants? In Isaiah 24:6 that the curse has devoured the earth because men have transgressed against the laws of God.

I was in Manila when Terry Shiavo was murdered - I wept for her. How criminal was that? Then there's abortion, sodomy, immorality, violence... America is so full of sin against God it's tragic - as an observer I reckon the only thing holding back God's hand is your very pro-Israel policy. Lose that and look out.

Israel as a nation has not yet turned to Christ they are sinners like the rest of us - but awareness that Jesus is messiah is growing there amongst the branches. The promises are theirs - we gentiles are grafted in because they fell - but their fall is not forever.

But to link Israel with the beast of Revelation 13 is dangerous. Take the warning Jesus gave the rich, complacent church at Laodicea.

[Guest]

Hey Sab, you left out hurricane Katrina.

[Guest]

Israel as a nation has not yet turned to Christ they are sinners like the rest of us - but awareness that Jesus is messiah is growing there amongst the branches. The promises are theirs - we gentiles are grafted in because they fell - but their fall is not forever.

The message of the Gospel of Christ has been going forth for 2000 years and Jews were the first to receive it and up to today Jews and Gentiles alike have been heeding that Gospel. So what does the Bible have that's different from that? What Jews living today were removed from the tree? For any Jew living today if one or many come to salvation then it is not that that one is grafted back in but that he has been grafted in just like any who come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

That paticular event of Jews being removed is a past event. Those who were removed and never returned in their life time are dead and gone. Now since that generation has passed the Gospel is not now for one group of people (gentiles) to be grafted in and not now waiting for a race of people(Jews) to be grafted back in. Instead the Gospel is open and free to all peoples of the world and all given in the same manner whether Jew or Gentile.

[Guest]

There is much Christian Zionist ranting against President Bush for what is going on in the middle east now. I was just reading this topic to refresh my memory of what had been said and thought I would add something. My comments are in blue.
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Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Not a lot of ambiguity there. The passage continues...

Isa 9:8 The Lord sends a message against Jacob, And it falls on Israel.
Isa 9:9 And all the people know {it,} {That is,} Ephraim and the inhabitants of Samaria, Asserting in pride and in arrogance of heart:
Isa 9:10 "The bricks have fallen down, But we will rebuild with smooth stones; The sycamores have been cut down, But we will replace {them} with cedars."

Because they say, "... we will rebuild ..."
and they say, "... we will replace ..."

Isa 9:11 Therefore the LORD raises against them adversaries from Rezin And spurs their enemies on,
Isa 9:12 The Arameans on the east and the Philistines on the west; And they devour Israel with gaping jaws. In {spite of} all this, His anger does not turn away And His hand is still stretched out.

How do they respond?

Isa 9:13 Yet the people do not turn back to Him who struck them, Nor do they seek the LORD of hosts.

Then ...

Isa 9:14 So the LORD cuts off head and tail from Israel, {Both} palm branch and bulrush in a single day.
Isa 9:15 The head is the elder and honorable man, And the prophet who teaches falsehood is the tail.

Why does this have to happen?

Isa 9:16 For those who guide this people are leading {them} astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.

Remember to keep this passage in context, "The Lord sends a message against Jacob, And it falls on Israel."

Isa 9:17 Therefore the Lord does not take pleasure in their young men, Nor does He have pity on their orphans or their widows; For every one of them is godless and an evildoer, And every mouth is speaking foolishness. In {spite of} all this, His anger does not turn away And His hand is still stretched out.
Isa 9:18 For wickedness burns like a fire; It consumes briars and thorns; It even sets the thickets of the forest aflame And they roll upward in a column of smoke.

Again, remember to keep this passage in context, "The Lord sends a message against Jacob, And it falls on Israel."

Isa 9:19 By the fury of the LORD of hosts the land is burned up, And the people are like fuel for the fire; No man spares his brother.
Isa 9:20 They slice off {what is} on the right hand but {still} are hungry, And they eat {what is} on the left hand but they are not satisfied; Each of them eats the flesh of his own arm.
Isa 9:21 Manasseh {devours} Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasseh, {And} together they are against Judah. In {spite of} all this, His anger does not turn away And His hand is still stretched out.

Not a lot of ambiguity there.
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Maybe Genesis 12:3 was only about blessing faithful Abram, who was renamed Abraham by the Lord, and not about blessing an apostate nation that came into existence thousands of years later and called itself "Israel."

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
Gen 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
Gen 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

No ambiguity...

*All Scripture quotes are from the NASB.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

...I don't think dispensationalists are about to convert to another religion---though their religion strongly resembles (Jewish) Zionism -- that is, in terms of those dispensationalists who are (Christian) Zionists....and many are, at least in principle.

3. Gal 1, RYLT:
6 I wonder that you are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news; 7 that is not another, except there be certain who are troubling you, and wishing to pervert the good news of the Christ; 8 but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- accursed let him be! 9 as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what you did receive -- accursed let him be! 10 for now men do I persuade, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if yet men I did please -- Christ's servant I should not be.

Though the dispensationalists are heretical...they have not gone so far as the Galatians (by circumcising themselves)....

Below quotes are excerpts from the article
"New faces in Judaism"
By Tim Townsend
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
01/12/2008

...They all were raised as Christians, most of them Baptists. One day last month, each was immersed in a ritual bath, or mikvah, in Memphis, Tenn. When the last of them emerged from the water, almost 3 percent of Cairo's black population had converted to Judaism...

Another excerpt from the article:

...As the group members got closer to completing the course, Goldstein began to make preparations for the actual conversion. All the males in the group who had not been circumcised went through the rite. Those who had, went through a hatafat dam, or a ritual removal of a single drop of blood.

Over four months, each member of the group sat before a bet din, or rabbinic court, to answer questions about his or her new faith. A dozen Reform and Conservative rabbis from St. Louis sat on the various courts...

The full article can be seen by clicking the title above the quoted excerpts.



Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

Lazarus, you have gone to some effort to show a number of verses that deal with God's anger against Israel. How about Numbers 24:9 Blessed is he who blesses you and cursed is he who curses you.

This WAS written about Israel , not Abraham.

Or take Obadiah. God's judgement on all the nations (v. 15) as you have done so it shall be done to you.

Furthermore there are the new testament verses that are very clear in showing God's heart of love for Israel.

Yes, God does use nations to bring judgement on other nations but what happens to them if they dare? they have free choice too. History shows what happens to nations that mistreat the Jews - they experience the same troubles that they heaped on the Jews. Why not read what happens to Gog and Magog when they attack Israel? hmmm it makes God furious. Especially as you might note that at that time they are dwelling safely. I have been looking through the OT prophecies recently about Israel dwelling safely. It seems to be related to their acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, nevertheless this does not stop the nations attacking them. Besides there is a strong warning in Romans to gentiles who boast so arrogantly against them. David refused to lay a hand against Saul - who was out of the blessing of the Lord.

[Guest]

History shows what happens to nations that mistreat the Jews - they experience the same troubles that they heaped on the Jews.

I don't think this concept is realistic, Sab.

Initially, Hitler tried to get rid of the Jews by sending them to other nations. Every major nation refused to give them asylum, and so Hitler resorted to "the final solution."

Thus every major nation shares guilt in bringing about the Holocaust. Has every major nation experienced "the same troubles they heaped upon the Jews"? Indeed, were the few minor nations that accepted the Jews any better off than the major nations? Was there a judgment on the nations that refused the Jews which the few who accepted them did not receive?

As for individuals, Martin Luther and others of his day hated the Jews. Did the Anabaptists who did not hate the Jews fare any better than the Lutherans? It was the Anabaptists who were put to death by terrible torture by Zwingli, Luther, and the Catholics. The Jew haters were not.

[Guest]

It's late at night here (for me anyway in Australia) this deserves a full answer. The way I see it is Antisemitism was global during the 1930s. World War 2 soon followed. Just as war/slaughter has followed specific acts of hatred towards the Jews. Tsar Nick's secret police published Protocols of the Elders of Zion to take the heat off the tsar and thousands of Jews died in the pogroms - The tsar and his family were murdered and their bodies burned and thrown in a hole. Germany was bombed to the ground.

Going back to the days of Pharoah - Egypt was brought to ruin.
The Assyrians came in the days of Isaiah - the angel of the Lord smote them in the night - a multitude died.
Babylon - came and went
The Romans destroyed Jerusalem - The same year Vesuvius exploded, burying Pompeii and other Roman cities.
Through history - Byzantine Empire persecuted the Jews - Constantinople has been one of the most besieged cities in history - Arabs, Persians, Bulgars, Crusaders, Turks... all had their day.
Poland's brief time of prosperity in the 15th-16 century coincided with their blessing the Jews. Then a few years later they began to persecute them and within a short time were themselves slaughtered by the Cossacks.
Russia - a long history of cruelty - shortly after the Jews were allowed their freedom came Glasnost.
Germany's fortunes plummeted until they were forced to pay Israel billions of $$ repatriation to Israel. In the early 60s Germany's economic "miracle" started.
In 2002 (or 2003) Mohamed Mahatir Prime Minister of Malaysia called on the Muslim world to drive Israel into the sea. Dec 26, 2004 - the Tsunami.

A global attack against Israel ends in Armageddon.

This is what Obadiah is talking about - God says he will judge the nations according to what they do to Israel. With what measure you mete it shall be measured to you again - pressed down and shaken together. No wonder Jesus said bless, don't curse your enemies. And Paul said they were enemies for the gospel's sake but beloved for the father's sake.

The Anabaptists suffered at the hands of so-called Christians because they made a stand for the truth of water baptism by immersion as adults - it shows how far from the truth Luther, Calvin and Co were. Suffering for the sake of the gospel is acceptable and anyone who follows Christ knows that persecution is a real possibility but the worst persecuters of the Jews for the bulk of the last 2000 years have been professing Christians. Is this what Jesus meant when he said the time would come when people who kill you will think they are doing God a service? Yes, he was talking to the disciples - who also happened to be Jewish.

I've seen churches go down the drain after they embraced an anti-Jewish message. Here in Australia in the last 20 years.