"Perish"... What does it mean?

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:21 pm

Hello Danny,

You are correct in what you wrote:

what you have clearly demonstrated is that apollumi carries multiple nuances of meaning beyond simply destruction.

The question then is what did the use of the word mean in the context:

Joh 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When apollumi is used in contrast with eternal life, the meaning becomes rather obvious. I realize that it is contrasted with aionios, of which we have much dispute. As I have shown the various translations of apollumi in John's gospel, I would ask any candid student of scripture to consider each case where aionios is used in the New Testament and see if the claim "Aionios never means eternal" is true or sophistic.

A Wigram's Greek concordance is not needed. Anyone interested can go here:

Aioios translations

Scroll down to the verse count and click on each book and you can read the translation in context.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:38 pm

Homer wrote:When apollumi is used in contrast with eternal life, the meaning becomes rather obvious.

Homer,

To you it seems obvious, so what do you think it means in a practical sense?....eternal torment?...annihilation?

If Jesus would have contrasted perish [apollumi] with the word "immortality" you may have a point; but, of course, He did not. Paul tells us that we are resurrected to immortality. On the hand, "eternal life" carries a different meaning. If we could find common ground on the meaning of "eternal life", then we might also find common ground on the meaning of "perish" as used in John 3:15-16.

Todd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:41 am

He did not. Paul tells us that we are resurrected to immortality. On the hand, "eternal life" carries a different meaning. If we could find common ground on the meaning of "eternal life", then we might also find common ground on the meaning of "perish" as used in John 3:15-16.

Todd, You nailed the crux of the issue which is whether aionios life means eternal life or life throughout the ages or life with the Eternal one. Certainly we as humans each have our own perspective as to what best defines justice therefore we have to leave the ultimate disposition to God, which apparently is how He wants it.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:08 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Todd, You nailed the crux of the issue which is whether aionios life means eternal life or life throughout the ages or life with the Eternal one.

Steve7150,

Jesus may have provided for us a simple explanation to this question. The answer is found in the story of the prodigal son. According to this story one is lost (apollumi), perished and dead (spiritually) when engaged in a wasteful, self-indulgent lifestyle in which he finds himself separated from the Father. This describes the son when he was engaged in riotous living. On the flipside, when one realizes his error, is contrite, and returns to the Father in humble submission, he finds peace and reconciliation with the Father, and he is now "found" and "alive" and his life in the Father can now be called "eternal life."

As I see it, when we are resurrected we put on immortality which is not the same thing as eternal life. Eternal life is not a reference to the after-life but describes the condition of one's life when he is in right relationship with the Father.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Todd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:01 pm

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Post by **__id_2533** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:46 pm

This is a very good statement!

Eternal life is not a reference to the after-life but describes the condition of one's life when he is in right relationship with the Father.

Thank you for making it!

peace, dmatic

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:49 pm

Eternal life is not a reference to the after-life but describes the condition of one's life when he is in right relationship with the Father.

The statement sounds good, and acceptance of it can lead to the avoidance of a number of theological problems. Nevertheless, I think it is too limited. The phrase "aeonion life" describes not only the quality of that life but also the permanency of it.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:23 pm

Paidion wrote: The phrase "aeonion life" describes not only the quality of that life but also the permanency of it.

Paidion,

Do you not believe that one can "fall away"?

Todd

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:29 pm

I was referring to post-mortem permanency. I am not sure whether or not one can "fall away" post-mortem. It seems that angels who were created as God wanted them to be, did just that. They, like us, were created with the ability to choose.

It is also the case that "permanent" does not necessarily refer to that which will never change. It sometimes refers to that which will endure a long time.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:36 am

Paidion wrote:I was referring to post-mortem permanency.

So do you believe that term "eternal life" is primarily a promise of life after the resurrection?

I was trying to assert that the term "immortality" used by Paul in 1 Cor 15:54 is used to describe the permanancy of life after the resurrection. And the term "eternal life" is primarily used to descibe the source and quality of life before death for those who are in right relationship with the Eternal Father.

Todd