"Perish"... What does it mean?

[Guest]

I understood your position, Todd, and I appreciate your thinking.

In my understanding, "aeonion life" does refer to life which begins with our regeneration, but it includes the idea of permancency as well as quality. I don't think it can be limited to our present life, but extends into our life after the resurrection.

I think "immortality" is used to emphasize that the resurrected body is a "spiritual body" as Paul called it, which will not die as opposed to our present physical body which is subject to death.

[Guest]

I understood your position, Todd, and I appreciate your thinking.

In my understanding, "aeonion life" does refer to life which begins with our regeneration, but it includes the idea of permancency as well as quality. I don't think it can be limited to our present life, but extends into our life after the resurrection.

I think "immortality" is used to emphasize that the resurrected body is a "spiritual body" as Paul called it, which will not die as opposed to our present physical body which is subject to death.

Paidion,

Thanks. I think you are probably correct.

It just seems to me that most people think the term "eternal life" only refers to "living forever in heaven," and in so thinking miss the primary meaning which is abundant life before death.

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Todd

[Guest]

Paidion, Do you then think that aeonian life, that is permanant can exist before "death" or only after death and resurrection? I note that by "permanent", you do not mean unchanging. In other words, we can still learn and grow etc.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Dmatic, it doesn't really matter what I think ---- only what the Scripture says. And it uses the phrase "aeonian life" as something we posses now as well as something which we will come to possess after death.

Here are some passages which indicate that aeonian life may be possessed now:

John 3:36 He who entrusts himself to the son has aeonian life; he who is not persuaded by the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I tell you you, he who trusts has aeonian life.

John 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has aeonian life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

And here are some which indicate that aeonian life is something that will be obtained in a future life:

Mark 10:29,30 Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come aeonian life.

Luke 18:29,30 And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come aeonian life."

Titus 3:4-7 ... when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of aeonian life.

[Guest]

Jesus told a little story that provides a strong hint what "perish" means, as contrasted with eternal life:


Matthew 13:24-53

24. Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25. but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28. He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29. But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”



Doesn't seem too difficult to figure out, unless your are governed by a certain paradigm.

[Guest]

Doesn't seem too difficult to figure out, unless your are governed by a certain paradigm.

Such as literalism?

[Guest]

Jesus told a little story that provides a strong hint what "perish" means, as contrasted with eternal life:

(Homer quotes) Matthew 13:24-53

What is the meaning of "the little story"which Homer quoted which is supposed to provide us with "a strong hint" as to the meaning of "perish" (apollumi)?

Jesus himself explained it:

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field."

He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Just as the darnel are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." Matthew 13:36-43

I understand "the close of the age" to be the close of this present age until the coming of Christ, after which the next age --- the millenium begins. At the coming of Christ, the angels will kill all evil doers, but the righteous will "shine" in the ongoing kingdom.

Certainly, "apollumi" is used for destroying people in physical death.
For example:

Matthew 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there till I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy (apollumi) him."

But the word is not limited to "kill". Nor is it limited to "utterly destroy" or "annihilate".

Consider for example:

1 Peter 1:7 ... that the testing of your faith ---much more valuable than gold which perishes (apollumi) through fire --- yet [your faith]being tested may be found to praise and glory and honour at the revealing of Jesus Christ...

We know that gold which goes through fire is neither "killed" nor "utterly destroyed". Nor is it annihilated. Rather the crude form of the gold is destroyed and only the pure, refined gold remains. That is what happens when people are corrected in the fires of Gehenna. The original form of the person, in many cases rebellious and hateful is destroyed, and the pure, refined individual steps forth, one who bows before our Lord and obeys him.

A second example which has already been mentioned, is the case of the "prodigal son". His loving father said:

Luke 15:24 "... this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost(apollumi), and is found."

The man's son was not "utterly destroyed" or "annihilated".

Jesus, too, said:

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollumi)."

So those who are lost, or "have been destroyed" or "have perished" are not beyond redemption.

[Guest]

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13)

If this is to be taken literally, I have a hard time imagining it as stated. Personally, I think if I was thrown into a furnace of fire, I would not have the presence of mind to weep with regret, or gnash my teeth in anger. I would be too busy screaming in pain, or just gasping for breath.

A few years ago I watched an episode of 'Spooks' (a British spy drama), where two spies were captured by the baddies. Trying to elicit information from her companion, they grabbed the woman agent & plunged her whole arm into a vat of burning oil. Her natural reaction of course was to scream out in agony. Her arm came out all sizzled. They actually showed the whole scene; it was quite shocking.
I know it was all acting, but even so it had quite an impact - perhaps because it was entireley unexpected.

When Jesus told the parable, it does sound like the tares were bundled & burned up in fire, but when He actually explained it to the disciples, to me it seems there's room for other than just literal understanding of the outcome.

[Guest]

If this is to be taken literally, I have a hard time imagining it as stated. Personally, I think if I was thrown into a furnace of fire, I would not have the presence of mind to weep with regret, or gnash my teeth in anger. I would be too busy screaming in pain, or just gasping for breath.

Whether literal or figurative, I do not know, though I do find it rather odd that the explanation of a parable would also be figurative.

Also, I often wonder why so many people assume that the "gnashing of teeth" is something done out of anger. I always thought it would be done because of pain.

[Guest]

Hi guys,

If the parable is figurative one thing for sure it has a literal meaning.

I believe the literal meaning is that those who offend Christ will suffer in pain.