Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

Rick_C. wrote:

I didn't read much of this thread because it has never mattered to me if one worships on Saturday or Sunday.

Rick, the question is not which day we worship, because we can worship every day...the question is which day does God instruct us to keep holy. We can worship while working at our daily jobs, but God instructs us not to work, but to rest on the day the He made holy. This includes animals and humans.

So, Rick, hopefully, it does matter to you whether or not people obey God!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Rick also wrote:

The Corinthians worshiped on Sundays on "the Lord's day." Saint Paul okay'd it. I guess you believe Paul and the Corinthians didn't know God yet, right, dmatic?

Rick, I am not sure where you got this information. I've never heard that.

The "Lord's Day" is mentioned by John in Revelation, wherein he meant that he was transported into the future "Day of the Lord", and has no reference to a day of the week.

If you have evidence that the Cortintians did keep the first day holy, instead of the seventh, and this practice being OK'd by Paul, I would be eager to see it. Thanks.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

the question is which day does God instruct us to keep holy. We can worship while working at our daily jobs, but God instructs us not to work, but to rest on the day the He made holy. This includes animals and humans.


Let's see dmatic,
"I am the Lord your God who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt out of the house of slavery" Duet 5.6
"Six days you shall labor and do all your work" 5.13

So it sounds like God is speaking specifically to the people he took out of Egypt , "YOU were a slave in the land of Egypt" , "Therefore the Lord your God commanded YOU to keep the Sabbath day."
Plus the command includes a directive to work on the other six days! Are you doing that?
So if the Lord took YOU out of Egypt then YOU must follow the Sabbath because God connected the two events by using the word "therefore."

[Guest]

Dmatic, I am guessing that Rick may have in mind the following passage from I Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.

If the first day had no significance for the Christians, why would Paul specify that they put something aside for the needy on that particular day. Why not the second day, or the third day, or the Sabbath day?

Some also infer from the following that the book of Acts recorded the first Christians as gathering on Sunday to participate in communion, and then hear a talk from Paul:

On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7

Second century Christians gave two reasons for observing Sunday as a special day:

1. It was the day that God made a change in matter [first day of creation].
2. It was the day that Jesus was raised from the dead.

I know that many Sabbath-keepers say that Jesus rose on Saturday. But we find the following in Mark's gospel:

Now having arisen early on the first of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. Mark 16:9

The early church did not impose Sabbath-keeping on the Gentiles, just as the council of apostles had concluded not to burden the Gentiles with other points of the Mosaic law.

When [Paul and Barnabas] came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise [the Gentiles], and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."

The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.
Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written, ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues." Acts 15:4-21

Justin Martyr [110-165 A.D.] wrote about Sunday being the day Christians gather for worship. This wasn't a replacement of the Sabbath with a different day. This was long before some pope supposedly changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first. It seems that the earliest Jewish disciples both observed the Sabbath day as a day of rest and also Sunday as a special day of worship.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the presiding one verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

[Guest]

Paidion,

Yes, those texts are what I had in mind (though Paul didn't, himself, actually call it "the Lord's day"). "The Lord's day" in Revelation is considered by all reputable scholars to be indicative of a Sunday.

As to (non-canonical) Early Christian Writings; the Didache, which might date as early as 70AD, makes specific reference to "the Lord's day" as the holy day Christians are to set aside for worship. Ignatius does the same (and he predates Justin).

more general comments

Orthodox Jews do not post on the internet on Sabbaths, as they consider it a type of work and as not-keeping the Sabbath day holy (go to the Beliefnet Orthodox Judaism forums and one will see they "close shop" every Friday evening at sundown)....

In the early (Post-NT) Christian literature, some Christians observed as "holy days for the Lord" both the (Jewish) Sabbath day, and the Lord's day. In other words, they set aside two days a week.

Others, from the earliest times, seemed to have observed one or the other (just one).

Early on; debates about: Which day is the right one? happened. Church officials had allowed for "one or both" till at least the Council of Laodicea of 364AD.

Jewish-Christians, however, continued to exist as "groups" into the 6th century. It was right around then, if I'm not mistaken, that they basically disappeared from church history.
________________________

a short thread-related quiz for anyone

I live in west-central Ohio; very close to Dayton, OH
(having the same local time, and sunrise/sunset times).

On Feb 1, 2008, I:
--was studying the Bible and praying from 5PM till I got ready and....
--drove to a Bible study at 6PM
--which began at 6:30PM (7 people in attendance)
--drove home afterwards, arriving at 7:45PM
--made some theology-related posts on the internet
--had my "evening" (bedtime) prayer and went to sleep

On Feb 2, 2008, I:
--woke up at 7:45AM and prayed
--studied the Bible, rested, and prayed (during daylight hours)
--did not go anywhere (to work, shop, or buy anything)
--ate pre-prepared meals
--did not post on the internet
--drove to a church service at 6:45PM
--which started at 7PM and ended at 8:30PM
--drove straight home, arriving at 8:45PM
--walked a total of only (maybe) 250 feet, tops
--continued to study the Bible and pray till 12:00AM, Feb 3, 2008
--from the time I got up till Feb 3rd; the entire time was set aside as "holy to the Lord"

Did I set aside (and/or observe) the sabbath day?

Did I set aside (and/or observe) the Lord's day?

Did I do anything wrong or make any technical, or other, mistakes?

I'm offering this link for assistance in answering the questions:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php

Good luck on the quiz!
Rick

[Guest]

Hola Rick:

Did I do anything wrong or make any technical, or other, mistakes?

If you want to get technical:

Jer. 17:21 Thus says the LORD: “Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the Sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; 22 nor carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any work, but hallow the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

This is a prohibition against carrying anything other than the clothes on your back , in public , during the sabbath. Therefore if you left the house for bible study carring a bible , keys , a wallet , etc. you violated the sabbath. (Feb. 1 after 5:56 PM)

Ex. 35:3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

This prohibition is against lighting or extinguishing a fire on the sabbath. This extends to driving a car which of course burns fuel. It as well extends to turning on , or off , a light in your house. If you turned off the lights when you went to bed , you violated the sabbath. It would also apply if you warmed up your food.

Writing , and erasing , are also considered work , so no posting on the internet is alowed.

These are extensions of decisions taken by the Sanhedrin by way of the Mishna. Their authority is derived from:

Deut. 17:9 And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. 10 You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the LORD chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you.


Thomas

[Guest]

Hello Thomas

Did I do anything wrong or make any technical, or other, mistakes?

That word "technical" has a "rabbinical" ring to it... Aish!!!

Btw, I followed up on what you wrote and found that some Orthodox Jews have light timers in their homes (for turning them on & off) and eat stuff that was in a slow-cooker (set on timers also).

I read how some Orthodox Jews hire, or have, others to drive them to synagogue. I'm not sure what Conservative Jews do on Sabbaths. If I'm not mistaken, they may think it's okay to drive to synagogue or to visit friends on Sabbath (but am not sure).

1. Did I set aside (and/or observe) the sabbath day?

2. Did I set aside (and/or observe) the Lord's day?

1. Had I been going by Conservative Jewish or, perhaps, by Messianic Jewish standards; I went to the Bible study on Friday, Feb 1...which in the Jewish calendar was the Saturday-Sabbath. My point being: It was no longer "Friday" after the sun went down.

There were only 7 people at the Bible study, which would not constitute a synagogue (10 men are needed, if I'm not mistaken). But by Messianic Jewish standards, "where two or three are gathered in my name," as Jesus said (with no reference to the number of men or what gender).

Other than this, I "rested" (what the word Sabbath essentially means) and kept the Sabbath time as holy to God till the end of the Sabbath, which was at sundown on "Saturday" --- at which time it became "Sunday" (by Jewish standards)...but it was still Saturday by the "Roman" calendar.

2. By the Jewish calendar, I went to church on "the Lord's day" (Sunday: at sundown it was no longer the Sabbath; the next day starts then). By "our" calendar I did it on Saturday.

Some Christians might argue that I didn't properly observe the Lord's day; that I should have gone to church on Sunday. However, going by the Jewish calendar, I DID go to church on the Lord's day! (I could potentially argue back)....

Christians who go to church on Sunday nites (and some churches are having services right now here in town, the Super Bowl aside) are, technically-speaking, according to the Jewish calendar, setting aside "Monday" for this time of worship (as it is now a "Jewish Monday", after sundown here).

In any event, I have the Super Bowl on TV right now...but I suppose it's okay. I mean, "if we want to get legally-Jewish" about it; it's not the Lord's day any more. Why are the Christians who are in church right now worshiping on a Monday? (Sunday nite, by the "Gentile calendar")

I hope you (all) see my overall point in this post and in my quiz. If we want to get legally-technical about this stuff...well, it's silly, imo. It's also NOT from God, which is quite a bit more serious....

But legalists will go on with what they do, challenging others about "What day?" "You don't know God!"...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.....

Hohum, sigh.....I'm going to go watch the Super Bowl.
It's a quiet "Sunday nite" AND "Monday evening" here in Ohio, Huh? Right???
Rick

P.S. Prediction: Giants 37, Pats, 35.

[Guest]

Rick:

Did I set aside (and/or observe) the sabbath day?

Did I set aside (and/or observe) the Lord's day?

There are two ways to answer that question.

1. Sabbatarian

In keeping with Deut 17 , there is , and can be , only one authority on the interpretation of Sabbath keeping and that would be the Mishna and the rabbinical courts. Any other standard that would soften their decisions would run afoul of:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Failure to keep it properly is failure to keep it at all. The answer to your questions would have to be no.

2. Non Sabbatarian


The answer is given in:

Acts 15: 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”....19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood.

And , of course , we must follow those commandments re-stated in the NT. All of which are there exept for Sabbath Keeping.

The keeping of the Sabbath therefore is voluntary and personal and is kept by following your own standards. And by being personal cannot be imposed on others.

The answer to your questions would be yes , irregardless of how you kept them.

IMHO Every day is the Lord's Day.

If we want to get legally-technical about this stuff...well, it's silly, imo.

exactly

Thomas

P.S. Prediction: Giants 37, Pats, 35.

Final Giants 17, Pats, 14

[Guest]

Steve7150 wrote and asked:

Plus the command includes a directive to work on the other six days! Are you doing that?
So if the Lord took YOU out of Egypt then YOU must follow the Sabbath because God connected the two events by using the word "therefore."

Yes, I am.

Are you suggesting, Steve, that only commands we actually hear with our own ears, from the voice of God, are to be kept by us? Are you saying that each of us is free to just do whatever we think we hear God telling us to do?

I agree that God does speak to us, and that we should do whatever He commands. However, hearing His voice seems to take "practice", and even we need to remove the idols of our hearts in order to hear Him correctly.

Also, probably, you are a ware of the symbolic use of the term "Egypt" in our experience too, are you not? Egypt seems to represent our bondage to "sin". Certainly, according to scripture we ARE all called out of "Egypt" (sin).....

hope that helps you to see that you too may be privleged to hear and do what God commands His people that He is setting free from their sin!

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.

If the first day had no significance for the Christians, why would Paul specify that they put something aside for the needy on that particular day. Why not the second day, or the third day, or the Sabbath day?

Well, I suppose that one could misuderstand Paul here and suggest that he was advocating a change of the Sabbath Day holy command, but I don't think he was so doing. he could have simply suggested another day of the week to lay aside something for others.

Another point, about those writings of the so-called early church. Paul warned throught the Holy Spirit that certain men would creep in unaware, arising from their own number and introduce destructive heresies, as soon as he was gone. Obvioulsy this has happened, so to take what those writers did and taught is suspect.

Peace, dmatic