Question in 2 Thess 2:1-2 "Gathering together to Him.&q

[Guest]

So the meek will not inherit the earth, nor will Abraham's seed inherit it. Nor will heavenly Jerusalem ever come down for heaven. Instead, it's only heavenly. I think you are confusing the current situation and forgetting about the future one. Especially if this world continues on as it is, if that is the case, it is the wicked to get the earth, and death still reigns. Sounds great!

Romans 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Revelation 1:4-6 Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I could go on but why...We as followers of Christ have conquered and are conquering. We are kings and priests. And Jesus is ruling over us. Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool.

Come on Sean...Are you literally a king and a priest? I suppose you could be a priest but that's beside the point...IT'S SPIRITUAL MAN!!!

You are a temple...You are a living stone...You will never die...You were dead and have now been made alive.

The Bible uses very familiar language to those that it was written. Look at John 3. Nicodemus made the same mistake. Climbing back into my mothers womb...
John 6. Eat my flesh...Drink my blood. The Jews flipped out when they heard this.

I would suggest that you along with a lot of other people are making the exact same mistake. And if you even think to say that you are not, then please explain to me why you aren't?

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

It is AAALLLLLLL Spiritual.

Pmike

[Guest]

2:1 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2:2 not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 2:4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God’s temple, displaying himself as God. 2:5 Surely you recall 12 that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you. 2:6 And so you know what holds him back, so that he will be revealed in his own time. 2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, 2:8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.

And it is government that continued to restrain it ---- and still restrains it.

Paidion, I'm having a difficult time seeing what you're talking about here. Paul tells them that they know what is holding him back.


24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation – spoken about by Daniel the prophet – standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 24:16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. ~Matthew


Sure does seem like Paul is refering to the same thing Jesus was here in Mattew 24:15-16. If that is the case, Jesus said, "so when YOU see..."


Seems so strange to me that they'd all be talking about something that was suppose to take place thousands of years into the future.


Maybe you can further explain.


"You" = some distant future?

[Guest]

And if you even think to say that you are not, then please explain to me why you aren't?

I have, but you have ignored what I posted so far. Like dispensationalist, you hold on to your proof texts while disreguarding other texts that refute your position and simply repeat yourself without dialogue.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

It is AAALLLLLLL Spiritual.

Pmike

And how exactly are you not like Hymenaeus and Philetus, who taught that the resurrection has already taken place. It's all spiritual, remember?

2 Tim 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

Paul warned us about people like you.

[Guest]

And if you even think to say that you are not, then please explain to me why you aren't?

I have, but you have ignored what I posted so far. Like dispensationalist, you hold on to your proof texts while disreguarding other texts that refute your position and simply repeat yourself without dialogue.

I beg to differ. I do not ignore any texts. You are making it an either/or argument and I am saying that it is a both/and. I am looking at them in a synergistic manner, suggesting that we must reconcile both. I listed a number of things in my previous post that are true about us as followers of Christ but they are not true in a literal/physical/earthly sense. None the less they are true. It is YOU who hold on to your proof texts while disregarding other texts that refute your position and simply repeat yourself without dialog.

I just don't get how you can see so many of the things that Jesus spoke about in gospels of as spiritual/heavenly/eternal but then others you hold on to as physical/earthly/temporal.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

It is AAALLLLLLL Spiritual.

Pmike

And how exactly are you not like Hymenaeus and Philetus, who taught that the resurrection has already taken place. It's all spiritual, remember?

2 Tim 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

Paul warned us about people like you.

Hardy har har!!!

Honestly I don't think we have enough info about Hymenaeus and Philetus and their understanding of the resurrection to be dogmatic and say that it somehow relates to preterism. However it is very likely that they understood quite clearly that there was in some sense a resurrection that took place when someone accepted Christ. Paul quite clearly taught this in Ephesians. I would suggest that Hymenaeus and Philetus mixed this teaching of Pauls with what the Sadducees believed that Jesus called wrong. That is that they did not understand there to be a resurrection at the end of the age...at the Coming of the Lord.

How does that sound?

Pmike

[Guest]

When government ceases to function, when it is out of the way, lawlessness will be unrestrained, and will rapidly increase ---- until Christ comes and conquers his enemies.

Hi Paidion, could you provide some scripture references for that?

[Guest]

Here is one of the reason I ask Paidion:


2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, 2:8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.

I don't know greek so forgive me. But is Paul refering here to the government as "he." Sort of like a car, (i.e., she's a real...).

Again, I don't know anything about greek, but I'm trying to follow where you're coming from concerning this:

When government ceases to function, when it is out of the way, lawlessness will be unrestrained, and will rapidly increase ---- until Christ comes and conquers his enemies.

[Guest]

Chiming in.

Paul, in the Thessalonian letters, was simply letting the believers there know that Christ would not return till after the man of sin (or lawlessness) was revealed. In other words, contrary to the Hymenaean teaching, this event was to have taken place first.

But also, Paul neither says that the man of sin, nor those who persecuted the Thessalonian believers would, necessarily, be living when Christ returns. The resurrection and judgment of the ungodly, as well as whoever is alive when Jesus comes back (saved or not), seems to be assumed as understood and commensurate with the rapture. 1 & 2 Thessalonians have no 'direct' teaching about the resurrection of the ungodly. While it might be hinted-at or, perhaps, implied from what we know Paul believed about the general resurrection; Paul doesn't specifically address {write about} the resurrection of the ungodly in either letter.

I can't say for sure who the man of sin was. I think his 'career' had things to do with what was finalized in 70AD. I'm a partial (or orthodox) preterist and, as far as I've been able to tell; the judgment and destruction of the man of sin hasn't happened yet
(rapture/Day of the Lord/general rez/judgment).
This is my take on 2 Thess 2 so far, anyway....
'Gets pretty technical, huh? I just keep studying,

[Guest]

Paul neither says that the man of sin, nor those who persecuted the Thessalonian believers would, necessarily, be living when Christ returns.

2 Thess. 1:3-10 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

So Rick...70AD or still future?

Pmike

[_Paidion]

Here is one of the reason I ask Paidion:

2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, 2:8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.

I don't know greek so forgive me. But is Paul refering here to the government as "he." Sort of like a car, (i.e., she's a real...).

No need to be forgiven for not knowing Greek. It is not a crime or sin against anyone not to have learned the language.

The word "he" does not exist in the Greek text. What follows is as close to a word-for-word translation of the Greek as is possible:

The secret of lawlessness is already operating except for the restraining [one] at present until he/she/it should become out of midst.

"Should become" is a verb in the subjunctive mood.

In Greek, the third person singular in itself does not indicate whether the subject is masculine, feminine, or neuter.

A possible reason that several translations use "he" is that the the present active participle "restraining" is in the nominative singular masculine form. But the fact that a word is masculine in Greek doesn't necessarily imply that its referent is male, but rather that the word which names its referent is masculine. In this case the participle "restraining" acts as an adjective which modifies a noun which is singular and masculine. Though that noun could be a man, a ruler, perhaps the caesar of Rome, for instance, grammatically, it could also refer to any singular, masculine noun, such as a word that meant "government". For example, it could be the Greek word "thronos" (throne), a symbol of government or rule. Since Paul does not state the referent of "restraining", many translations supply "one" ("restraining one") but we don't know whether that restraining one is a person or an institution.

It is true that the early Christians believed the "restraining one" to be the government of Rome. It seems virtually all disciples have expected the return of Christ in their day.

Even the referent is "kaisar" (caesar, king), or "despotās" (despot), this doesn't limit it to Paul's day. There was a supreme caesar of Rome or despot in that day, and there have been governing authorities evers since. They are not always called "kings" or "despots" but these authorities have always restrained lawlessness ---- perhaps not all lawlessness, but at least to the extent that people would not have complete freedom to do whatever they wanted.

That restraining power will be no longer present immediately before the second coming of Christ.

Again, I don't know anything about greek, but I'm trying to follow where you're coming from concerning this:

When government ceases to function, when it is out of the way, lawlessness will be unrestrained, and will rapidly increase ---- until Christ comes and conquers his enemies.

I hope what I have written helps you to understand my position.

[Guest]

Quote by RickC

But also, Paul neither says that the man of sin, nor those who persecuted the Thessalonian believers would, necessarily, be living when Christ returns.

Rick, do you then interpret 2 Thess. 2:8-9 like I suggested earlier in the "alternate reading" or in some other way?

Sounds like our views are pretty similar on this. Just curious why you don't think that passage links the destruction of the lawless one with the second coming.