I certainly understand your illustration. However, that doesn't clarify the issue. NT seems to be saying that the gospel isn't about individual salvation, and for the Jew was not meant to show them the way to be saved. Yet Jesus said that unless you are born again you will not enter the kingdom of God. There is something the individual must do, or they will not enter. This is because salvation was not a covenant in a vacuum, but rather a covenant with the faithful. A Jew is one who has a new heart. The old badge of the law really wasn't a badge of salvation (as they may very well have thought). Which is why something was required individually on their part, or they, as individuals, were cut off.Rick_C wrote:My understanding of NTW's view of (first century) Jews.
Let's do some historical-grammatical interpretation and "go back" to, how about, 25 AD. For illustrative purposes, I'll pretend I'm a Jew living then. Here's my story:
"I was born a Jew. Our God chose my ancestors to be His Own Special People. He has given us laws to live by. Since we are His Own, we love and obey Him. Ever since I was born, I have been taught the ways of our God and live under His gracious guidance, care, and protection."
Did you guys see that?
Okay, did "I" (in my above illustration), have to "get saved" or do anything at all in order to become one of the People of God? No, I was born into the family!
NTW sees first century Jewish obedience to the law as their inward and outward "badge of covenant membership" as opposed to their "having to earn salvation" (the legalistic traditional Protestant view).
The Jews didn't obey their God's laws to become Jewish or to "earn God's salvation"---it was simply what they did. "We're Jews who live for our God" {think: holy lifestyle, they wore it like a "badge"}. Make sense yet?
Recent N.T. Wright Interview on Justification & NPP
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Sean,
NTW believes in Jesus' substitutionary atonement just like we all do. "He died for our sins, according to the scriptures."
Wright doesn't believe we "get" God's own holiness imputed inside of us at justification, which is God's declaration of our entry into His covenant (people). NTW believes we get a new nature (2 Co 5:17, etc.) and that our personal sanctification {sanctified, holy living} follows justification. In other words, after we become Christians {Justification: are declared by God to be Christians} we, then, live for Him. While we do partake of the divine nature through the Holy Spirit and strive to live holy, righteous lives; we do not possess the righteousness of God Almighty Himself, Who is so much more "right" (righteous) and transcendent over us.
Our personal righteousness {as in, holy and obedient living} is what we are to do and "simply do" because we are God's People. In this sense of "Covenant Obedience" we differ none from first century Jews. This is how NTW, myself, and others see it anyway....
This is a good discussion so far. (I hope we don't wind up "debating about the law"). Sean, I know you have a pretty traditional view on these things. I'm wanting to learn more...and hope we head in that direction! If you haven't listened to the interview, I really think it would help you see NTW's POVs (I'm a "listening learner" myself)....
Have a Good Lord's Day,
NTW believes in Jesus' substitutionary atonement just like we all do. "He died for our sins, according to the scriptures."
Wright doesn't believe we "get" God's own holiness imputed inside of us at justification, which is God's declaration of our entry into His covenant (people). NTW believes we get a new nature (2 Co 5:17, etc.) and that our personal sanctification {sanctified, holy living} follows justification. In other words, after we become Christians {Justification: are declared by God to be Christians} we, then, live for Him. While we do partake of the divine nature through the Holy Spirit and strive to live holy, righteous lives; we do not possess the righteousness of God Almighty Himself, Who is so much more "right" (righteous) and transcendent over us.
Our personal righteousness {as in, holy and obedient living} is what we are to do and "simply do" because we are God's People. In this sense of "Covenant Obedience" we differ none from first century Jews. This is how NTW, myself, and others see it anyway....
This is a good discussion so far. (I hope we don't wind up "debating about the law"). Sean, I know you have a pretty traditional view on these things. I'm wanting to learn more...and hope we head in that direction! If you haven't listened to the interview, I really think it would help you see NTW's POVs (I'm a "listening learner" myself)....
Have a Good Lord's Day,
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
P.S. NTW isn't a Calvinist. He's closer to being Arminian, depending on what the topic is. But he can't be put in either category (I can't be either, though I'm non-calvinist). His views of ordo salutis [what order the events of salvation occur in] differ from the Reformers and/or Calvinists. This would be a whole another topic to go into. I posted NTW's ordo salutis views last summer on one of the threads, but can't remember which one. At any rate, NTW's not a Calvinist, though he does agree with the Reformers on some basics (as all Christians do, whether they are Arminian, Calvinist, or whatever). NTW is in his own category....
Last edited by _Rich on Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Thanks Rick,
I did listen to the link at the top, and it is in that interview that he states that faith is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in us, showing that we are part of God's family. I've listened to several mp3's of his over the years and he seems to want to appease the Reformers that listen to him, this is why I have a hard time following him. He may just be talking their talk to get them to not "shut him out" so as to not listen at all, but I have a hard time figuring him out because he has not clearly defined his terminology. Calvinists and Arminians both believe in "election" but define this term differently. NT Wright defines his terms differently that many people, yet without a glossary, I don't know what he "means" sometimes.
I did listen to the link at the top, and it is in that interview that he states that faith is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in us, showing that we are part of God's family. I've listened to several mp3's of his over the years and he seems to want to appease the Reformers that listen to him, this is why I have a hard time following him. He may just be talking their talk to get them to not "shut him out" so as to not listen at all, but I have a hard time figuring him out because he has not clearly defined his terminology. Calvinists and Arminians both believe in "election" but define this term differently. NT Wright defines his terms differently that many people, yet without a glossary, I don't know what he "means" sometimes.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
You're welcome, Sean.
I know what you mean by NTW being hard to understand. And you're right about him speaking to a wide audience (he's speaking to the whole church and every theology-camp in it)! He has to "tailor" what he says into a kind of "one-size-fits-all" for a church that has more different sized shoes than it could ever possibly count!
Someplace in this interview he says something to the effect that he is often misunderstood because "I can't say everything at once" (or something like that). If he misses one particular detail {think: Grand Calvinistic Schemes} or doesn't fully address it; he's suddenly a tad off-track, gravely in error, or even considered a heretic! "If I only I could have said everything about every theological topic in that last one hour interview: Perhaps I wouldn't have been so misunderstood"....
One thing on election and related: NTW is definitely not a Calvinist-monergist: "God elects, you have no choice". He might not be exactly an Arminian-synergist but in his ordo salutis he didn't say anything I found objectionable. And, as you know, I'm pretty strongly non-Calvinist. Maybe we can get to this stuff later or on another thread.
As far as an "NTW glossary" goes, its seems like you just have to listen to and/or read him to find out what he means {in context, reading or listening to his critics also helps a lot}. I've not read his more major works but continually read online stuff about them, have 30 or so of his mp3 lectures, and all kind of links/articles.
Here's what seems ironic, and I'm glad of it: NTW's thought, after I've been sifting through it for a few years now, has become real simple, basic stuff here lately, and easy to understand. I can't say I agree with NTW on everything, though. There must be differences of some kind, on non-essentials. (But he has the essentials down pat, imo)!
Quick and on-topic.
Since I've come to see justification as God's declaration to me that I'm "in" His People, I've had a new sense of "connection" to OT saints. My obeying the Lord is like theirs: I do it because I'm one of His just as they did....
I know what you mean by NTW being hard to understand. And you're right about him speaking to a wide audience (he's speaking to the whole church and every theology-camp in it)! He has to "tailor" what he says into a kind of "one-size-fits-all" for a church that has more different sized shoes than it could ever possibly count!
Someplace in this interview he says something to the effect that he is often misunderstood because "I can't say everything at once" (or something like that). If he misses one particular detail {think: Grand Calvinistic Schemes} or doesn't fully address it; he's suddenly a tad off-track, gravely in error, or even considered a heretic! "If I only I could have said everything about every theological topic in that last one hour interview: Perhaps I wouldn't have been so misunderstood"....
One thing on election and related: NTW is definitely not a Calvinist-monergist: "God elects, you have no choice". He might not be exactly an Arminian-synergist but in his ordo salutis he didn't say anything I found objectionable. And, as you know, I'm pretty strongly non-Calvinist. Maybe we can get to this stuff later or on another thread.
As far as an "NTW glossary" goes, its seems like you just have to listen to and/or read him to find out what he means {in context, reading or listening to his critics also helps a lot}. I've not read his more major works but continually read online stuff about them, have 30 or so of his mp3 lectures, and all kind of links/articles.
Here's what seems ironic, and I'm glad of it: NTW's thought, after I've been sifting through it for a few years now, has become real simple, basic stuff here lately, and easy to understand. I can't say I agree with NTW on everything, though. There must be differences of some kind, on non-essentials. (But he has the essentials down pat, imo)!
Quick and on-topic.
Since I've come to see justification as God's declaration to me that I'm "in" His People, I've had a new sense of "connection" to OT saints. My obeying the Lord is like theirs: I do it because I'm one of His just as they did....
Last edited by _Rich on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:36 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
You used to have a different understanding? What was it? When you say, "What else can I do but love and obey Him?" do you mean obey the OT law or the one written on your heart?Rick wrote:Quick and on-topic.
Since I've come to see justification as God's declaration to me that I'm "in" His People, I've had a new sense of "connection" to OT saints. My obeying the Lord is like theirs: I do it because I'm one of His just as they did. "We (OT saints and myself)" have been the recipients of God's saving grace as He extends his hand and saves even me! What else can I do but love and obey Him? I am His and He is mine!
Okay, I'm sounding a tad mushy & mystical here (contemporary worship lyrics, lol) ... 'Better go, Smile
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Hi Michelle,
1. My understanding, from the way I was raised, was that before Jesus came the only way to be saved was to obey God's law(s). In other words, you had to be an obedient Jew or, otherwise, convert to Judaism and do the same. I thought they "had to earn their salvation" (pretty much the standard traditional Protestant view). In this interview, Wright talks about salvation specifically and how the traditional view links justification to it as being essentially the same thing. Salvation and justification are surely related but not exactly the same thing, he says.
While obedience was definitely required by God in the OT (no doubt about that); I no longer see it legalistically (traditional Protestant view). Absolutely: To remain in the People of God obedience was, and still is, demanded. But it is God-Who-Saves. Salvation is the gracious gift of God in both Testaments (NTW, myself, others). The faithful OT Jews obeyed God because they were His. NTW says no first century Jew would have conceived of law-abiding as what they had to do to "earn" the grace of God (how the Reformers thought they did). I think Wright's right on this.
God's grace has been freely extended since he called Abraham, (and even before him). OT Jews were by saved by grace, through faith, in their---and now---our God, in Christ. We're justified by faith upon entering into the Kingdom {God says, "You are a Christian"}. After we enter in, we obey God because we're His People, "It's what we do." Of course, we still "must" obey Him...but we don't do it to earn His grace.
The traditional Protestant view is at least partially responsible (if not much more) for things like Eternal Security and/or the P in the tulip. Christians have been taught, "When I got saved, God imputed His Own Righteousness into me. No sin I ever commit can keep me from losing my salvation!" Even Arminians, who believe God put His Own Holiness "into" them, think that if they sin and do not repent..."It should be okay" [this paragraph roughly summarizes NTW's thought on the matter].
The Jews had no such doctrine of imputation, including Paul, and the Lord Jesus! It's unbiblical {meaning, wrong}. Wait, I take that back. Some of the Jews in the Temple thought they had inherited God's righteousness "genetically" ... and Jesus disagreed!
2. I don't see an OT/NT "disconnect" between the two as I did before. This is what I meant to convey when I said I sense a "connection" to OT saints. God's law isn't an "enemy" set over against me {see Romans 7-8}. It's what my heart delights in! Not that I've become perfect, ("O Lord, have mercy!"...)..and He does...and I need a nap, take care,
Okay, I won't go yet,I wrote:Quick and on-topic.
Since I've come to see justification as God's declaration to me that I'm "in" His People, I've had a new sense of "connection" to OT saints. My obeying the Lord is like theirs: I do it because I'm one of His just as they did. "We (OT saints and myself)" have been the recipients of God's saving grace as He extends his hand and saves even me! What else can I do but love and obey Him? I am His and He is mine!
Okay, I'm sounding a tad mushy & mystical here (contemporary worship lyrics, lol) ... 'Better go, Smile
You replied:
1. You used to have a different understanding? What was it?
2. When you say, "What else can I do but love and obey Him?" do you mean obey the OT law or the one written on your heart?
1. My understanding, from the way I was raised, was that before Jesus came the only way to be saved was to obey God's law(s). In other words, you had to be an obedient Jew or, otherwise, convert to Judaism and do the same. I thought they "had to earn their salvation" (pretty much the standard traditional Protestant view). In this interview, Wright talks about salvation specifically and how the traditional view links justification to it as being essentially the same thing. Salvation and justification are surely related but not exactly the same thing, he says.
While obedience was definitely required by God in the OT (no doubt about that); I no longer see it legalistically (traditional Protestant view). Absolutely: To remain in the People of God obedience was, and still is, demanded. But it is God-Who-Saves. Salvation is the gracious gift of God in both Testaments (NTW, myself, others). The faithful OT Jews obeyed God because they were His. NTW says no first century Jew would have conceived of law-abiding as what they had to do to "earn" the grace of God (how the Reformers thought they did). I think Wright's right on this.
God's grace has been freely extended since he called Abraham, (and even before him). OT Jews were by saved by grace, through faith, in their---and now---our God, in Christ. We're justified by faith upon entering into the Kingdom {God says, "You are a Christian"}. After we enter in, we obey God because we're His People, "It's what we do." Of course, we still "must" obey Him...but we don't do it to earn His grace.
The traditional Protestant view is at least partially responsible (if not much more) for things like Eternal Security and/or the P in the tulip. Christians have been taught, "When I got saved, God imputed His Own Righteousness into me. No sin I ever commit can keep me from losing my salvation!" Even Arminians, who believe God put His Own Holiness "into" them, think that if they sin and do not repent..."It should be okay" [this paragraph roughly summarizes NTW's thought on the matter].
The Jews had no such doctrine of imputation, including Paul, and the Lord Jesus! It's unbiblical {meaning, wrong}. Wait, I take that back. Some of the Jews in the Temple thought they had inherited God's righteousness "genetically" ... and Jesus disagreed!
2. I don't see an OT/NT "disconnect" between the two as I did before. This is what I meant to convey when I said I sense a "connection" to OT saints. God's law isn't an "enemy" set over against me {see Romans 7-8}. It's what my heart delights in! Not that I've become perfect, ("O Lord, have mercy!"...)..and He does...and I need a nap, take care,
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
I must be one of the most dense people on earth because justification to me is as simple as receiving the gospel of Christ (if we believe on His name we shall be saved). Abraham was justified before God because of His faith (which we now know was in something greater than himself) but was justified before men because of his works James 2:14-26
How was Abraham saved with not one mention, as far as we know, of Christ? It was because simply he believed God. But that does not discount the fact that Christ still needed to come in order to satisfy all the conditions. Abraham may or may not have known that the Savior was yet to come but by the very fact that he believed God Abraham was counted righteous as if Christ had already died for his sins which was yet to come.
How was Abraham saved with not one mention, as far as we know, of Christ? It was because simply he believed God. But that does not discount the fact that Christ still needed to come in order to satisfy all the conditions. Abraham may or may not have known that the Savior was yet to come but by the very fact that he believed God Abraham was counted righteous as if Christ had already died for his sins which was yet to come.
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Hey Brother Allyn,
NTW sees our receiving the gospel "simply" also. If I'm not mistaken, in his ordo salutis, the message of the gospel is what brings what he names "The Call." We hear the Word, the Spirit testifies to it (we hear The Call), and we believe. (I think he gets this from Romans 10). Wright says we know we have been justified when God says, "You are a Christan" {see Romans 10:9,10}. It sounds all-involved and complicated but really isn't...Nice new look you got there, bro. I need a haircut too,
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several hours later
All, I just realized something.
What I've been saying about NTW so far been about initial justification. This particular point has been a, if not the, major bone of contention Calvinists have had with Wright on "imuputation." Actually, justification is also present, ongoing, and future (as NTW talks about in the the interview).
I thought I'd best mention this,
NTW sees our receiving the gospel "simply" also. If I'm not mistaken, in his ordo salutis, the message of the gospel is what brings what he names "The Call." We hear the Word, the Spirit testifies to it (we hear The Call), and we believe. (I think he gets this from Romans 10). Wright says we know we have been justified when God says, "You are a Christan" {see Romans 10:9,10}. It sounds all-involved and complicated but really isn't...Nice new look you got there, bro. I need a haircut too,
-----------------------------------------
several hours later
All, I just realized something.
What I've been saying about NTW so far been about initial justification. This particular point has been a, if not the, major bone of contention Calvinists have had with Wright on "imuputation." Actually, justification is also present, ongoing, and future (as NTW talks about in the the interview).
I thought I'd best mention this,
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Link to full transcript of: Trevin Wax interviews N.T. Wright, Nov. 2007
Note: I'm pasting the above link and the link from page one on the "What did Saint Paul Really Say?" thread...since we have a kind of NTW library there. When I posted this thread it was really more of an announcement.
I'm thinking we could maybe post on the older thread (so we don't repeat stuff, among other things). I'm not leaving this thread, just thinking "consolidation."
Note: I'm pasting the above link and the link from page one on the "What did Saint Paul Really Say?" thread...since we have a kind of NTW library there. When I posted this thread it was really more of an announcement.
I'm thinking we could maybe post on the older thread (so we don't repeat stuff, among other things). I'm not leaving this thread, just thinking "consolidation."
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth