Question in 2 Thess 2:1-2 "Gathering together to Him.&q

[Guest]

Do you have book, chapter, and section references from Josephus to show that the Thessalonian Jews were, indeed, affected by the Great War in any way? My resources say they were uninvolved and, therefore, were essentially unaffected by it. You mentioned the Jews in Jerusalem coming under God's judgment in 70AD: I know about them (Josephus).

1. What are your resources?

2. I don't think I ever said directly that Non-Believing Thessalonian Jews were affected by Roman armies. However one of the strategies of the Roman armies was to wipe out everything Jewish along the way to Jerusalem so as not to be flanked(From memory...Don't have a reference...will look however.)

3. Once again...Read 1 Thess. 2:14-16 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

1 Thessalonians says that Non-Believing Jews that were persecuting them. 2 Thessalonians says that God would repay those that were persecuting them.

(Jerusalem and Thessalonica are not the same city).

I never said or even alluded to this.

Paul expressly wrote that the Thessalonican Jews would come under Christ's (God's) judgment and be eternally destroyed for persecuting the believers there. You haven't provided evidence that this happened to them nor that they were even affected by the Great War in any way. As far as I know, and have no reason to think otherwise, the Thessalonian Jews who persecuted Christians in that city died natural deaths and will be judged on the Last Day.

You will have to pardon my being naive here once again. I take it very literally when the text says that THOSE that are persecuting you will be judged. Therefore it would have to be within the lifetime of the ones doing the persecuting. Which brings me back to this same point of relief from persecution.

How would people living at the same time as Paul who were being persecuted by very real living people be comforted by some form of recompense on judgment day thousands of years after they die?

But if you have documentation that the Jews in Thessalonica were annihilated in 70AD, and my resources say they were not; please post it (I want to know). If you can present this, you would then have a basis to make case for a "70AD fulfillment in Thessalonica" regarding precisely what and who Paul wrote about.
I'd be glad to hear it (and will respond),

What I am suggesting is that what happened in the 42 months...1260 days...3 1/2 years known as The Jewish War, that this event best fits the description and timing of impending doom and judgment upon those who rejected the gospel and were persecuting the followers of Christ.

It is you that need to justify why it is still future. All you can say is I've not seen any evidence that Non-believing Jews in Thessalonica were actually judged between 67-70AD. Does this mean that it didn't happen? No...It just means that there may have not been any record of it. However Paul did say that it would happen and that the believers would be relieved by it.

Funny thing is...you don't even have to justify why you believe what you do. You simply say...It hasn't happened yet. Why??? Because you say that you didn't see it happen. Or that there is no record of it. All that proves is that you didn't see it or that record of it was lost or simply not recorded.

Be back later for more...I look forward to your response.

Mike

[Guest]

Hey Rick

N.T. believes in it. It's just that he speaks out so much against popular views of it...it could make one wonder (look at the title, above).

I hope you don't think I was suggesting that Wright was a full-preterist. I know that he isn't. He often talks of a future New Heavens and New Earth and a resurrection. But he definitely appears to be preterist about all of 2Thess.

I've actually toyed with the possibility of Chapter 1 being about 70AD and Chapter 2 being mostly about the 2nd coming. That fits IMO because I believe PsychoMike (where did you come up with that name? ) raises some valid points with the usage of the word "you" in Chapter 1. It's the same reason I generally take all of the Olivet Discourse as fulfilled in 70AD also.

[Guest]

Hey Rick

N.T. believes in it. It's just that he speaks out so much against popular views of it...it could make one wonder (look at the title, above).

I hope you don't think I was suggesting that Wright was a full-preterist. I know that he isn't. He often talks of a future New Heavens and New Earth and a resurrection. But he definitely appears to be preterist about all of 2Thess.

I've actually toyed with the possibility of Chapter 1 being about 70AD and Chapter 2 being mostly about the 2nd coming. That fits IMO because I believe PsychoMike (where did you come up with that name? ) raises some valid points with the usage of the word "you" in Chapter 1. It's the same reason I generally take all of the Olivet Discourse as fulfilled in 70AD also.

Some nimrod I worked with 10 years ago started calling me that and it kind of stuck. And it works well as a screen name.

And I've not found anyone that can give me a good reason why 2 Thess 1 isn't speaking about 70AD. They usually throw out, "Well it just didn't happen," or "history doesn't record it." Well...History doesn't record the apostle Paul taking a dump. But that doesn't mean that he didn't. It just means that it wasn't recorded.

[Guest]

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matthew 10:16-23 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 "since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Matthew 24:30-34 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Premise #1 Matthew 24 up to verse 34 is speaking about 70AD. Most other than dispensationalists agree with this statement.

Premise #2 Jesus said that He would return before they go throughout all of Israel.

Premise #3 Jesus said that some of His disciples would still be alive when he came in the glory of His father...In power and with His angels.

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Conclusion: The events spoken of above, that Paul speaks about in 2 Thess 1 fit better with a 70AD fulfillment than something still future to us.

Pmike

[_Rick_C]

What are your resources?

Google "Jews in Thessalonica" and you'll get Wikipedia and other Jewish history sources.

I don't think I ever said directly that Non-Believing Thessalonian Jews were affected by Roman armies. However one of the strategies of the Roman armies was to wipe out everything Jewish along the way to Jerusalem so as not to be flanked (From memory...Don't have a reference...will look however.)

Thessalonica had a big Jewish population. They weren't done away with (unless you have something else on that)?

I take it very literally when the text says that THOSE that are persecuting you will be judged. Therefore it would have to be within the lifetime of the ones doing the persecuting. Which brings me back to this same point of relief from persecution.

You're reading foreign ideas into the text.
It does not say it has to be within their lifetimes!
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Th 1, NIV).

When will this event take place?
When will believers be comforted and/or get relief?
When will persecutors be punished?
2 Th 1:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words {1 Th 4:16-18}
Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (1 Th 5:1).
But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief (1 Th 5:4).
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (2 Th 2:3).
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Th 1:6, NIV).
on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed (2 Th1:10a)---the dead in Christ will rise first 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 16b, 17)---This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you (2 Th 1:10).
11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing (1 Th 5:11).

At the Day of the Lord/rapture, the the dead in Christ will be raised. Living believers will meet them and the Lord in the air. THEN Jesus will be marveled at by all who have (ever) believed. THEN he will also repay with retribution those who deserve it including: the Thessalonican Jews Paul wrote about, every person who ever lived or is alive on that Day.

The Thessalonian letters teach ONE Day of the Lord/rapture/judgment: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...the dead in Christ will rise first...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. [WHEN Jesus will be] "marveled at among ALL those who have believed"...God "will pay back trouble to those {Thessalonians Jews} who trouble you....For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God...in flaming fire."

Pmike, I can see you're trying to "fit" things into a systematic theology. I haven't been doing that on this thread and don't especially care for systematic theology. If you carefully read what I've posted, I've been doing biblical exegesis {aka, biblical, not systematic, theology} of the Thessalonian letters here. Nothing more, nor less. I don't "match up verses" from different books till I know for sure what each book says: 1 & 2 Th have been my target on this thread. I'm not talking about "other books" (being very commited to biblical theology over systematic, myself).

I've actually toyed with the possibility of Chapter 1 being about 70AD and Chapter 2 being mostly about the 2nd coming.

Chapter 2 merely says the Day of the Lord will not happen till after the man of lawlessness is revealed (which I see as 70AD related and about events in Jerusalem, Great War).

If chapter one is about 70AD (as I've posted before); the Thessalonian believers have already been given relief, marveled at Jesus (SEEN him) before we and "all who have believed" have; the Thessalonian Jews have already been eternally destroyed, and some kind of "another rapture" must have taken place!

One Day, One Rapture, One Coming, One with His Mighty Angels, One Judgment, One Marveling by ALL Believers, One Gathering, One Relief, One Retribution, One Pay Back, One Trumpet of God, One in Flaming Fire, One Voice of the Archangel, One Comfort, One Rewarding ALL of the Saints, One Destruction ALL of the Sinners, One REZ, ONE DAY OF THE LORD....after the man of lawlessness has been revealed! in 70AD!

Btw, I knew you didn't mean to suggest NTW was a full-preterist.

Anyway, if y'all really look at 1 & 2 Th {by themselves exegetically}, you'll see that all they really say is, "Jesus will come back and judge everyone. Believers will be rewarded for their godly lives. Sinners will be punished. But this won't happen (as Paul wrote to the Thessalonians back then) till the man of lawlessness is revealed" (which is over & done, 70AD), imo.

rvornberg,

I don't claim to know "everything" about eschatology. But I've wrestled with it and 1 & 2 Th. for a long, long time. I hope my compilation of Paul's teaching in these letters helps you out some. I think I'm pretty close on it and have it down basically (though I don't know everything).....
God bless you, everyone,

[Guest]

I would love to continue this conversation with you further Rick...But I don't think we are conversing with each. I think we are speaking past each other.

God bless

[_Rick_C]

Pmike, I have a couple questions.
It's entirely possible, if not quite probable, that some of the Jews who had persecuted believers in Thessalonica died before 70AD. Scholars date 2 Th in the early 50s. (If we went with 52AD, that's 12 years). So, if any of these Jews died before 70AD, have they been "paid back with retribution" yet? (2 Th 1:6)?

Paul promised they would pay.
If they were dead, how could this have happened already, if you think it did? Rick-out.

P.S. I just saw your post. The reason why I asked the above questions is because they really have to be addressed and dealt with, imo, to do good exegesis. I know I have to do it, anyway. There are no shortcuts and I'm very strict about it.
But, okay, if you want to stop discussing: Thanks for the interaction, , Rick-out-out.

[Guest]

Pmike, I have a couple questions.
It's entirely possible, if not quite probable, that some of the Jews who had persecuted believers in Thessalonica died before 70AD. Scholars date 2 Th in the early 50s. (If we went with 52AD, that's 12 years). So, if any of these Jews died before 70AD, have they been "paid back with retribution" yet? (2 Th 1:6)?

Paul promised they would pay.
If they were dead, how could this have happened already, if you think it did? Rick-out.

It seems to me that you are focusing on the details and missing the story. Please look at the previous post of mine from Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:04 pm.
If you cannot see the connection it is because of intentional blindness. The connection is clear. The timing statements are plain. IT IS SIMPLE...Just look at the verses. The SAME WORDS are being used. If you can NOT see the connection or if you choose to suggest that there are two separate events that are being spoken of here then YOU are the one that needs to give justification for what you believe. I already have.

Pmike

[_Rick_C]

Pmike, from that post:

How would people living at the same time as Paul who were being persecuted by very real living people be comforted by some form of recompense on judgment day thousands of years after they die?

Paul will be comforted. The Thessalonian brothers and sisters, and all believers, will be comforted on the Day He returns (this is called our rewards).

Thessalonian Jews who persecuted Christians there will be paid back. Hitler will be paid back. Nero will pay for it. And all others who are deserving will get their pay-back on the Day He returns (this is called retribution).

Other than this: You aren't answering my questions (and don't seem interested, which is fine). I have a blog I need to get to, and got some other stuff to do. I'll still come to the thread though. Between me and you Pmike, "I think I'll sit this one out," Take care.

[Guest]

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Is there any written record anywhere of a number of people in 70 A.D. seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? If people had seen such an event, surely someone somewhere would have recorded it in the annals of history.