Question in 2 Thess 2:1-2 "Gathering together to Him.&q

Post by **_psychohmike** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:36 pm

Paidion wrote:
...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Is there any written record anywhere of a number of people in 70 A.D. seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? If people had seen such an event, surely someone somewhere would have recorded it in the annals of history.

At this point in time it seems as most people futurist or not have accepted that Matthew 24 up to verse 34 was fulfilled in 70AD. I believe that there are still some rather extreme futurists that are holding out. And I don't remember where you are at Pai. But YES I do believe that they saw the sign.

Matthew 24:30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,"

Was it recorded in history, yes, read The Jewish War by Josephus. He records some really crazy stuff that was happening.

Heavenly phenomena
- A star resembling a sword
- A comet (Halley's Comet)
- A bright light shining around the altar and the temple
- A vision of chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds and all cities of Palestine.

Earthly phenomena(reported by priests)
- A quaking
- A great noise
- The sounds of a great multitude saying, "Let us remove hence."
- During the Roman siege of Jerusalem, Josephus reported that a heifer being led to the altar in the temple gave birth to a lamb.

So yes...I would say that history records that they saw the sign.

Did they actually see Jesus...No. He said Himself that they would not see Him again unless they received Him.

Matthew 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!

Pmike

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:57 pm

None of the quotes you shared from Josephus indicate that anyone
saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The prediction that they will, comes from verse 30 (prior to verse 34). There is not a shred of historical evidence that anyone saw Christ coming on the clouds of heaven with great glory, not in 70 A.D. or at any time since then.

Not did all the tribes of the earth mourn when Jerusalem was destroyed around 70 A.D.

Also, what is the magic about verse 34? Matthew doesn't record Jesus as suddenly jumping from a description of the destruction of Jerusalem to his second coming when it occurs over 2000 years later. The account of what will happen continues in the succeeding verses without a break. None of the account has happened yet except Chist's statement about the destruction of Jerusalem in verse 2. The rest of it is Christ's answer to the disciples' question in verse 3:

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

The disciples assumed that all would happen at the same time. But Jesus, who knew better, did not address the question, "When will this be?" but answered the other two questions, "What will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

His coming and the close of the age is yet future. All that Jesus described from verse 4 on is future.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:42 pm

Paidion wrote:None of the quotes you shared from Josephus indicate that anyone
saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The prediction that they will, comes from verse 30 (prior to verse 34). There is not a shred of historical evidence that anyone saw Christ coming on the clouds of heaven with great glory, not in 70 A.D. or at any time since then.

Hey Pai...Why don't you read my post a little bit closer this time. I never said that anyone saw Jesus coming on the clouds in 70AD. However Matthew 24 does not say that they would see Jesus. It says "Then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in heaven"

What I said was that they, "SAW THE SIGN."

Pmike

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:51 am

PMike wrote:Hey Pai...Why don't you read my post a little bit closer this time. I never said that anyone saw Jesus coming on the clouds in 70AD. However Matthew 24 does not say that they would see Jesus. It says "Then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in heaven"

I didn't claim that you said it. What I claimed was that Jesus predicted that they would see him coming on the clouds as recorded in Matthew 24:30

Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

This passage falls within the range of verses in Matthew 24 which you claim was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

If no one in 70 A.D. saw Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, then Matthew 24:30 was not fulfilled in 70 A.D.

If there were any tribes in the earth in 70 A.D. who did not mourn when they saw the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, then Matthew 24:30 was not fulfilled in 70 A.D.

By the way, I don't know how you can temporally differentiate between seeing the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and seeing him coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory. The verse indicates that all the tribes who see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and mourn, are the very people who see him coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory.

Post by **_Seth** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:40 pm

Paidion wrote:By the way, I don't know how you can temporally differentiate between seeing the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and seeing him coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory. The verse indicates that all the tribes who see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and mourn, are the very people who see him coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory.

I think the typical preterist explanation here is that Jesus was not telling them they should expect to see him, but rather see him "coming with the clouds", meaning coming in judgment. His listeners wouldn't necessarily have expected to literally see Jesus, but rather see the results of his judgment.

"Coming with the clouds" brings to mind this:

Isaiah 19:1:
1 An oracle concerning Egypt:
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.

Certainly nobody in Egypt actually saw God riding on a cloud...

As for "all the tribes of the earth" mourning, I'd interpret that as "all the tribes of the land", meaning the tribes of Israel. I don't think an argument could be made that the tribes of Israel *didn't* mourn in 70AD.

-Seth

Post by **_rvornberg** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:30 pm

I would sort of like to refocus the conversation again to "our gathering together to Him."

Reading through the thread, although not specifically mentioned (at least not noticed by myself) I sort of gather that there could be a few different views on how "our gathering together to Him" will look.

Where they gathered to Him in the first century? If so, how do we know, or is it pure speculation and therefore no different than the Left Behind drama?

If they were, what did it look like? Did their cloths drop, did they simply disappear?

If they were expecting to disappear, how could they have thought they missed it?

If this gathering is associated with Jesus' coming, (which seems very likely) Jesus did seem to indicate to the disciples that it would be rather clear. Warning them not to go if someone said He is here or there.

Which also tells me, whether it was them or us... believers where to be on earth when it happened.

Lots more question, but hoping for some ideas from you guys.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:05 am

rvornberg,

In my post on Mon Feb 25, 2008 (at the bottom of page 3, text color in indigo), I mentioned I hoped my compilation of Paul's Thessalonian teaching on the coming of the Lord might be of help to you. (That post contains about all of my basic thoughts on it: Paul's compiled teaching in both letters).

Post by **_rvornberg** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:35 am

Rick_C - on Feb 25th 08 wrote:One Day, One Rapture, One Coming, One with His Mighty Angels, One Judgment, One Marveling by ALL Believers, One Gathering, One Relief, One Retribution, One Pay Back, One Trumpet of God, One in Flaming Fire, One Voice of the Archangel, One Comfort, One Rewarding ALL of the Saints, One Destruction ALL of the Sinners, One REZ, ONE DAY OF THE LORD....after the man of lawlessness has been revealed! in 70AD!

Thanks for you thoughts on that. I'm still looking for why and how they could have thought they missed it.

Rick_C, I hear what your saying, and sounds very simple... but it's pretty clear it's not that simple. How could they have thought they missed it?

Based on what you've stated above, I can say with confidence, I haven't missed it and neither has anyone in history.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:11 pm

They thought they missed it, because they heard teaching to the effect that "the Day of the Lord has already come." 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

It seems that the same teaching is offered to us today ---- by the preterists. It all happened in 70 A.D. ---- and we missed it, didn't we?

Post by **_rvornberg** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:34 pm

Paidion wrote:They thought they missed it, because they heard teaching to the effect that "the Day of the Lord has already come." 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

It seems that the same teaching is offered to us today ---- by the preterists. It all happened in 70 A.D. ---- and we missed it, didn't we?

Hi Paidion, I understand that, I really do. Problem: if they believed what we believe in our day, they couldn't have thought they missed it.

Paul could have simply said: Folks, church, come on! We couldn't have missed it. We haven't be caught up yet... don't you see that! Didn't I tell you that already!

I hear what you're are saying Paidion, but that doesn't prove anything. The obvious is that they heard teaching that they had missed it. But if they belived what we do (or what some of us did) they couldn't have missed it. Do you follow?