That 70th week

[Guest]

... been thinking about Daniel 9:24, and the 70 "weeks."

It would seem to me that the key in determining if we are still waiting for the 70th week to occur is not in proving or disproving a gap between the 69th and 70th week. Rather, it seems to lie in the opening salvo of the prophecy itself: verse 24 - which reads:

Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

If it can be demonstrated that the following conditions have been fulfilled:
1) an end of sins
2) reconciliation for sins has been made
3) everlasting righteousness has been brought in
4) vision and prophecy has been sealed up
5) the Most Holy has been anointed

then, it could rightly be deduced that the 70th week has BEEN fulfilled, and there is no reason to discuss a 2000+ year gap any longer.

However, if it can be demonstrated that these conditions have NOT been fulfilled, then the only conclusion we can draw is that we are still waiting for the 70th week and the ultimate fulfillment of this prophecy, and that the gap is reasonable.

Here is what I have found for each point (in respective order) so far ...

In possible favor of the NON-fulfillment of the conditions:
1) Heb. 9:28
2)
3) Gal 5:5
4)
5)

In possible favor of fulfillment of the conditions:
1) Rom 6:1-22, Heb. 9:26, 1 John 3:6-9
2) Rom 5:11
3) Rom 3:21
4) Acts 3:18
5) Luke 4:18, Acts 4:27, Acts 10:38

I found it harder to find supporting scripture for the first scenario. However, if anyone can come up with some verses, I'd love to know them ...

peace,

dane

[Guest]

I've heard it said that since there are still sins that God has not yet made and end of sins. This will not happen until all power and authority have been destroyed per 1 Cor 15. I disagree with this interpretation, but it's out there.

[Guest]

I believe that the 70 weeks were fulfilled in 70AD. Mainly because of the first part of verse 24, "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city."

I say this because old covenant Judaism lost it's effectual value at the cross and as a fully functioning organism ceased to exist in 70AD. Which to me is something that is part and parcel with the 70th week.

I believe that there are two halves to the 70th week like dispensationalists. I however put my gap between the two halves rather than before the week. I suggest that the first 3 1/2 years are fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry.

And here's why...

In my observation of verse 26 and 27 of Daniel 9 it occurred to me that they are very Hebrew in nature. Each verse has two halves. And it seems to me that the first half of each verse is speaking about the first 3 1/2 years fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry...that is that He confirmed a covenant with many and that He brought an end to sacrifice and sin and that He was cut off, at the cross.

And then the second half of each of the verses is fulfilled in the 3 1/2 years that culminated in the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. That is that the people(the Jews) of the Prince(Jesus) who is to come, because of their rebellion destroyed the city and the sanctuary and on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate. That is the spirit of anti-christ which was alive and well when 1 John was penned. Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate, whom Jesus addresses in Matthew 23. "See! Your house is left to you desolate." Paul also confirms in Galatians 4 that the Jerusalem that was currently in bondage was referred to as, "the desolate."

So no matter which way you look at the 70 weeks there has to be a gap. There is no way to do the math and come up with a consecutive 70 weeks like a lot of pretersts would like to do. However I think it is much more forced to make the gap before the 70th week and make it consecutive like the futurists would like you to think. And in my mind it is no coincidence that the book of Revelation only speaks of a 3 1/2 year period of tribulation...NOT SEVEN.

The text of Daniel 9 makes it VVVEEERRRRRRRYYY clear that there is something that happens between the two halves of the last week. "Then He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."

So no matter how you slice it...The first 3 1/2 years ended at the cross. And I would suggest that it is no coincidence that the siege of Jerusalem lasted exactly 3 1/2 years.

Pmike

[Guest]

I've heard it said that since there are still sins that God has not yet made and end of sins. This will not happen until all power and authority have been destroyed per 1 Cor 15. I disagree with this interpretation, but it's out there.

Thanks Sean. That's the kind of argument that I'm looking for. I hadn't thought of 1 Cor 15:26 which indicates that not all enemies have yet been defeated. Perhaps someone can argue that an end to sin has not yet happened based on this passage.

I'll add it to my list ...

peace,

dane

[Guest]

I believe that the 70 weeks were fulfilled in 70AD. Mainly because of the first part of verse 24, "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city."

I say this because old covenant Judaism lost it's effectual value at the cross and as a fully functioning organism ceased to exist in 70AD. Which to me is something that is part and parcel with the 70th week.

Pmike,

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't really looking for philosophical arguments, but was hoping to gather NT passages indicating that the conditions set forth by Gabriel have been (or have not been) met.

... however, what you said below did pique my interest:

In my observation of verse 26 and 27 of Daniel 9 it occurred to me that they are very Hebrew in nature. Each verse has two halves. And it seems to me that the first half of each verse is speaking about the first 3 1/2 years fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry... And then the second half of each of the verses is fulfilled in the 3 1/2 years that culminated in the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

I had not heard that division before, and it is most interesting. Are you aware of any other passage(s) of scripture (perhaps more plain to see) where it is so divided? If it can be demonstrated that Hebrew writing commonly divided verses, as you suspect is the case in Dan 9:26-27, then it would be easier to assume that this is the case here.

Thanks ..

peace,

dane

[Guest]

Hebrew thought and poetry is a funny thing. It doesn't rely on rhyme as we know it but in contrasts.

Look at Psalm 1...Observe the contrast between the first half...verses 1-3 and the second half verses 4-6.

A perfect example of Hebrew thought and poetry.

Pmike

[Guest]

Look at Psalm 1...Observe the contrast between the first half...verses 1-3 and the second half verses 4-6.

A perfect example of Hebrew thought and poetry.

Pmike

Pmike,

I'm not sure ... it doesn't seem to me to be an example of how you felt the first half of Dan 9:26 relates to the first half of verse 27, and the second half of verse 26 relates to the second half of verse 27 (which, btw, I like)

In Psalm 1 the first three verses seem related, and the last three seem related. But the mix is not the same as you proposed for Dan 9:26 & 27.

Someone might easily say that you relate the first half of Dan 9:26 & 27 (as well the second half of these verses) because it fits your theology to do so. However, if you can demonstrate elsewhere in a less obscure passage where this is done, then it will be easier to accept here.

Care to try again?

peace,

dane

[Guest]

Hi Dane, I'm not being dogmatic with my view of these two verses. What I wanted to do is simply point out something that kind of jumped out at me. It's not something that I've ever heard of myself. Like I said...It just jumped off the page at me.

Do you have a better way to understand those two verses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_p ... arallelism

[Guest]

However, if it can be demonstrated that these conditions have NOT been fulfilled, then the only conclusion we can draw is that we are still waiting for the 70th week and the ultimate fulfillment of this prophecy, and that the gap is reasonable.

I think at best if the eschaton was still future you would only be waiting for the second half of the last week. The first half of vs. 27 says, "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Also...One could argue that Jesus brought an end to sacrifice and offering at the cross. Because of His sacrifice the old covenant one became ineffective. Although some might say, "well...they kept making sacrifices till Jerusalem fell." And if that could be proven then that still leaves the first half of the 70th week being completed in the first century.

Which...like I said...IF the eschaton were still future that would fit with the 3 1/2 years found in Revelation and would explain why there is no 7 year period spoken of in Revelation.

Mike

[Guest]

Do you have a better way to understand those two verses?

Actually, I don't, Mike. The way you explained it makes sense. But I'm cautious not to accept something solely because it resonates with me. That's why I wanted to know if there is a precedent in scripture that would allow you to see the two halves of verses 26 & 27 be joined together in the manner you suggested. I'll have to keep my eye open for this in other OT passages ...

The passages you shared from Romans and Matthew do well to support the first half of verse 27. However, that's not the passage I am looking for support of. As I mentioned in my original post, I believe the key to determining if the 70 weeks are now fulfilled, is if the conditions mentioned by Gabriel in verse 24 are - or are not - fulfilled.

Also...One could argue that Jesus brought an end to sacrifice and offering at the cross. Because of His sacrifice the old covenant one became ineffective. Although some might say, "well...they kept making sacrifices till Jerusalem fell." ...

This is what I was hoping to avoid - a philosophical argument. In other words: what NT passages tell us that Jesus brought an end to sin (or, what passages tell us that this has not yet happened)?

I'm sure the dispensationalist will argue: "how can you say sin has ended?? It is all around us!!" To which I would say: But are there any NT passages that tell us we are still waiting for the end of sin? If so, where?

So far the NT passages that I am collecting that tell me these conditions have been met by Christ are far out-weighing those that would suggest we are waiting for their fulfillment. But, since my mind does not work like a dispensationlist's, I might be missing some of their key verses. And that's why I posted ...

I Googled this and came up with a few dispensational web sites that touch on Daniel 9:24. However, they dismiss it by saying something like "we can see that these things have not been fulfilled." Yet, they provide no NT passage to back up what they are "seeing."

If I am going to study this in an unbiased manner, then I need to collect the best arguments for each side.

peace,

dane