What if they knew what we knew?

[Guest]

Dear Paul,
-Who is the man of sin? And what is restraining him from being revealed, because we actually don't know?
-By the way, what was your thorn in the flesh? (just curious, you can tell me to mind my own business).
-Also, I'm joining the petition for some clarity on 1 Tim 2:15.
thankyou.

Regarding the discussion of soul sleep/death/going to be with the Lord,
I was brought up by my father to believe in soul sleep/unconsciousness, then as a teenager started attending AOG, and gradually accepted the view of the soul going to heaven at death. So what Steve (and others) said, & looking at the scriptural support, it makes sense; to me some of the arguments for would be Moses & Elijah at the transfiguration, and also spirit of Samuel brought back by the witch.

Then I consider what Paidion says (and Jepne), and it makes sense. Also I've always thought it a bit incongruous, trying to imagine all the souls in heaven having to float back to the graves & be resurrected with a new body, to meet the Lord in the air again.

So I'm back at not knowing what to believe, and am just glad that it's not an issue central to salvation!

p.s. Hi Zoe (and Eric), nice to meet you.

[Guest]

Paidion- a couple of quick points-

if our spirit is "regenerated" when we are born again (i take this to mean "made alive") then what happens to the Spirit when our flesh dies? Does it die also, until the resurrection? is it simply in a "holding pattern?" Or do you not believe that our spirit is separate from our flesh?

TK

[Guest]

Dear Paul,
-Who is the man of sin? And what is restraining him from being revealed, because we actually don't know?
-By the way, what was your thorn in the flesh? (just curious, you can tell me to mind my own business).
-Also, I'm joining the petition for some clarity on 1 Tim 2:15.
thankyou.

heh. The second and third were the questions I had. The first is a good one, too.

[Guest]

in regards to Paul's thorn, note:

But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell. Numb. 33:55

know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the LORD your God has given you. Josh. 23:13

Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side,[a] and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” Judges 2:3

don't these suggest that Paul's thorn was a person(s)?

TK

[Guest]

If our souls do not go immediately to heaven when our bodies die, what did Jesus mean when He said to the thief on the cross, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

In Hellenistic Greek, the language in which the New Testament was written (with the possible exception of Matthew), there were no punctuation marks of any kind. Indeed, the words were all in upper case letters, with no spaces between.

I noticed that a comma was placed before "today" in the translation from which you quoted. Perhaps Jesus' meaning would come out correctly if we placed that comma after "today".

Truly I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Sometimes we use a similar expression even in our day:
"I'm telling you right now, there's going to be trouble if you do that."

Paidion- a couple of quick points-

if our spirit is "regenerated" when we are born again (i take this to mean "made alive") then what happens to the Spirit when our flesh dies? Does it die also, until the resurrection? is it simply in a "holding pattern?" Or do you not believe that our spirit is separate from our flesh?

I believe each of us exists as a complete entity.

In the account of creation, God created a human body from earth. He breathed into that body the breath of life (spirit), and man became a living being (soul, if you wish).

We read in Ecclesiastes 12:7 that when we die

the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

As I see it, this means that that life or spirit of life by which God made man alive, departs again to God, while the body changes back to earth and remains here. The spirit is not the conscious part of us, but the life which God imparted when he created man. In the OT, "soul" simply meant "being". We read in Genesis of "the soul of beasts". We also read that through Moses one was not to "touch a dead soul", that is a dead human being.

Later both "spirit" and "soul" were used in reference to the conscious aspect of the human being. However, just because we can describe those aspects with the words "spirit" and "soul" does not necessitate our believing that the human being is a trichotomy. Paul writes as if the body is our "clothing" or "house" and that we somehow need somthing in which to live. I am not sure whether Paul was saying this in a figurative sense or whether he actually believed that there is an "I" which is somehow dichotomous with respect to the body.

To sum up my own beliefs in answer to your questions:

1. Our whole being (not just something called our "spirit")has been regenerated.

2. When we die our spirit (that is the spirit of life which we have because we are descended from Adam to whom it was given) goes back to the God that gave it. That spirit is not the personal consciousness. It is simply life.

3. I'm not sure about the "holding pattern". I think you are suggesting some the possibility of some kind of continuity of our personality so that the same person will be resurrected. I don't think that such a pattern is necessary in order for God to raise the same person. He who originally created persons, and gave them the ability to generate other persons, is well able to raise to life the same person who once lived, even if that person no longer exists in any sense prior to that act.

[Guest]

That our spirit, not having consciousness, goes back to be with God is a somewhat difficult concept to make sense of. I was, however, talking to a friend of mine the other day that believes something similar. He said our spirit/life goes to God. In God's MEMORY we are kept alive, though unconsciously. But he said God's memory is so vibrant, that one can almost experience some level of consciousness when necessary, thus explaining post death appearances of Samuel, Moses & Elijah.

[Guest]

Thanks for following up Paidion.

You gave me new insight on that verse. It's amazing how translators contribute so much to the interpretation of the Bible and if you don't look closely you could miss it and assume that is what the Bible is actually saying.

Now I'm going to have to seriously study and re-look at verses that I thought affirmed my belief on the soul/body connection, or unconnection I guess I should say.

Interesting understanding of the definition of the soul and/or spirit, too.

Maybe you could expound your understanding of Rev. 20:4-6?

(I seem to being getting off the original topic here.)

Thanks, Zoe

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

I believe each of us exists as a complete entity.

I have been reading a three volume book by Watchman Nee entitled "The Spiritual Man." He goes to great lengths to explain the practical aspects of the trichotomy. If you are right, he wasted a lot of time writing that book. The problem is, it seems to make so much sense.

TK

[Guest]

TK,

I once had that book, and read all but the very last couple chapters. It really was a good book (IMO). One thing I noticed about the manner Nee undertook to explain the nature of man, was that it seemed to have the greatest potential for progress in sanctification. Sanctification has two aspects. There is definite sanctification, and there is progressive sanctification. From what I've noticed, people err when the fail to grasp either of the two. For example, the spirit has been saved, the soul is being saved, and the body shall be saved. I personally dont view man being broken up into parts so to speak, but instead see three apsects or levels on which man functions and operates. In one place, man is said to be a soul. He that wins souls is wise. In another place, man seems to be flesh. No flesh shall glory in His presence. In yet another place, man is referred to as a spirit. ...The Father of spirits. Though all of these (spirit, soul, body/flesh) are at times used synonomously and interchangably, there is no question in my mind that they are also distinct from one another in some sense.

[Guest]

I don't find the trichotomist position persuasive. I think the monist & dichotomist positions both fit better with the biblical record. But that's just my opinion.