Book review: Pagan Christianity

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:25 pm

I have been puzzled for some time with the thing about "house churches". Is the objection to the congregation owning a building as opposed to renting one? Or is it just a form of objection to the "institutional church", whatever that means? After all, the earliest church was an institutional one, unless in "Christian talk" the word institutional has an esoteric meaning. (Ever notice how Christians have a special language. We never tell one another something, we "share" with them :wink: . Perhaps we need a Christian dictionary.)

The word "institutional" can mean "organized for a purpose". When Jesus appointed Apostles and that church chose the first deacons, in a real sense the church was an institution.

I know of a church group that opposes instrumental music yet they own church buildings. It seems to me the New Testament neither advocates nor forbids either one.

If Church builings were bad, Jesus didn't seem to notice, nor did He object to them:

Luke 4:16 (New King James Version)

16. So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.


Perhaps the real objection to "institutional is found in the sense of being organized at the expense of something else that is lost. Is it because services are more or less "planned"?

1 Corinthians 14:40 (New King James Version)

40. Let all things be done decently and in order (Grk taxis).


The New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5010 ta/civ
Original Word Word Origin
ta/civ from (5021)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Taxis tax'-is
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine None
Definition:
1. an arranging, arrangement
order
2. a fixed succession observing a fixed time
3. due or right order, orderly condition



Perhaps Paul was "institutionalist? Are house churches more or less in compliace with Paul's instruction?

I suppose I ought to read the book and see what the objection is.
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:12 pm

Hi Danny,

To be on-topic (this book) I added the Dan Kimball link to my last post. I might see if my library can get it for me but am in the middle of N.T. Wright's "Simply Christian" at the mo...and am a slow reader when it comes to books.

Have you ever read Gene Edwards? My cousin gave me two of his books a while back: Overlooked Christianity and Beyond Radical which sound like they're real similar in content to Pagan Christianity ("anti-establishment").

Hello Homer,

I'm not sure if Danny wants the thread to be open for debate. He might want it to be a discussion for those who have read the book. Till I read the book I can't really discuss everything about it (as I've read only one chapter, book reviews, and blog stuff to go by). Btw, Dan Kimball has links to several book reviews.

You are correct that Jesus read and expounded on the Scriptures. This is no different from a sermon. In other words, the Jews "had sermons." They weren't invented" later.

I've posted that Paul and/or the Christians in Ephesus rented a philosopher's hall for two years. Chapter One of Gehring's book documents how Christians renovated the [larger] homes of more well-to-do believers and built or rented "meeting halls" before the first church buildings were built (after Constantine).

Also, on a "paid clergy." Paul writing in:
1 Cor9:3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?

But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel

15But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast (NIV, underline mine).


According to this passage, the Lord's brothers and Peter (Cephas) took their wives (and possibly children?) along with them on their travels and got "full time pay" for preaching and their entire families were financially supported: they had this "right" to full-time ministry support. This was essentially no different than paid (traveling) evangelists of our time who are fully supported by churches and/or their denominations.

Danny, please tell me if I'm off-topic or if you don't want this to be any kind of debate (and open to people who haven't read the book), ok? Thanks.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:24 pm

Danny, please tell me if I'm off-topic or if you don't want this to be any kind of debate (and open to people who haven't read the book), ok? Thanks.
I don't know that I'm particularly interested in a debate, but I'm always open to discussion. The time constraints I'm currently under may limit my participation, especially since I seem to have trouble writing short posts (as this one will bear out). It's fine by me whatever direction this thread takes, though I personally would be mainly interested in hearing the reactions (good, bad or indifferent) of those who read the book.

I don't think one has to be "sold" on the idea of house-churches in order to concede that some (or all) of the points Viola makes are worthy of serious consideration. Each of the points he addresses could be topics for their own discussion threads. These include:

Church Buildings
Order of Worship
The Sermon
The Pastor
Sunday Morning Costumes
Ministers of Music
Tithing and Clergy Salaries
Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Christian Education
(Each of the above is a chapter title in Pagan Christianity)

To quote John Stott, "The hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions, but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform."

Various groups in the past (early Anabaptists and Quakers come to mind) questioned these same points and concluded that they were not necessary to be the church and in some cases were even obstacles to the church functioning in the way it was intended. We don't think of 16th century Anabaptists or 17th century Quakers as "house-church movements" though they did by-and-large meet in houses out of necessity. When the Quakers eventually began to build their own meeting houses, the architecture reflected their ecclesiology in that the buildings were simple and the seats were arranged inward facing so that members looked at one-another. Along these lines of how architecture both reflects our values and dictates how we function, Viola quotes Winston Churchill: "We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us."


Rick, in response to your statements:
You are correct that Jesus read and expounded on the Scriptures. This is no different from a sermon. In other words, the Jews "had sermons." They weren't invented" later.
And
I've posted that Paul and/or the Christians in Ephesus rented a philosopher's hall for two years.
No one familiar with the New Testament would dispute these claims. The question is, were the settings in which Jesus and Paul taught considered normative church gatherings? Was the earliest church methodology of gathered meetings based primarily around the didactic lectures of a single individual, or did it tend to be more interactive? Paul's description of church gatherings in the following scriptures lead me towards believing the latter:

1 Corinthians 12:14-26
Colossians 3:15-17
Ephesians 5:15-20
Ephesians 4:15-16
1 Corinthians 14:26
Romans 1:11-12
Hebrews 10:23-25 (emphasis on the words "one another")

I'm impressed by what I've read about a very large church in Ohio called Xenos Christian Fellowship (http://www.xenos.org/aboutxenos/history.htm) which is comprised of myriads of small house-churches. They gather together on a Sunday in an auditorium for teaching (more like a college lecture than a sermon), but do not have musical worship or some of the other typical trappings of a Sunday "service". Rather, they consider "real church" (my term, not theirs) to take place in home gatherings.

It seems that a church can gather in an informal and interactive setting (such as a house) and also meet in a setting geared towards instruction from a learned individual. The Quaker church I've been visiting lately has both "Meetings for Worship" (which have no agenda or program other than to encounter the risen Christ) and "Meetings for Teaching".


Homer, you wrote:
I have been puzzled for some time with the thing about "house churches". Is the objection to the congregation owning a building as opposed to renting one? Or is it just a form of objection to the "institutional church", whatever that means?
I'll answer this from my own perspective and experience.

I was the associate pastor of a Vineyard church and was "in the pipeline" to plant a Vineyard in a neighboring city and be it's senior pastor, when I began to really wrestle with the question of what "the ekklesia" was supposed to look like. This took on many facets, including questioning the very points that Viola tackles in Pagan Christianity.

After much scripture study, prayer, discussion and reading I came to the conclusion that the form of church as we had been doing it was not serving the intended function of the ekklesia. Of particular concern to me (as a pastor) was the lack of spiritual maturity in so many folks who had been believers for years and years. It seemed that the imbibing of hundreds of Sunday morning sermons had had limited effect.

As a potential Vineyard church planter, I attended conferences and read various materials on church planting. I was astonished to read in the Vineyard materials that an initial milestone of a successful church plant was to obtain a building. A second major milestone was when the tithes were large enough to enable the planter/pastor to "go full-time". According to these materials, it was expected that 85% of the church budget would go towards the building and salaries. Materials I've read since then from other sources seem to corroborate this.

I began to have a real crisis of conscience. The people in our congregation were middle-class and blue collar folks that were barely making ends meet. Some were struggling to keep their cars running and their mortgages current. Why were we pumping thousands of their dollars a month into rent on a building that was only occupied a few hours per week? Why did we in "leadership" know so little about the dreams, visions and giftings of the people in our congregation? Perhaps because there was no provision made for them to step out, grow and function in their dreams, visions and gifts (unless, of course, their dream was teaching Sunday school, their vision was ushering and their gift was janitorial).

One Sunday that I was supposed to give the sermon, I instead broke the congregation up into groups of 10 or 12, had them move their chairs into circles (lucky thing we didn't have pews) and had each person share with their group about their God-given dreams, visions and gifts. It was a remarkable Sunday and the excitement was palpable.

I left that church and began meeting in a house with other believers. I dropped my pastoral orientation and instead assumed the role of a facilitator. I was continuously amazed at how the Holy Spirit would lead our gatherings and at the profundity of what would come out of rank-and-file believers once they were given the freedom and encouragement to express their spiritual gifts. It was not unusual for us to check the clock and discover that four hours had gone by in what felt like one! By the end of a gathering we were usually amazed and excited about how the Lord had given us a very clear message, but had done so not through a sermon but through a song sung by this person and a prayer spoken by that person and a scripture shared by another and a testimonial given by someone else. The term "Body of Christ" was becoming a manifest reality rather than an abstract idea. I won't bore you with any more details except to say that that house-church experience was wonderful beyond anything I had imagined. It has ruined me, as far as being able to sit passively in a congregation Sunday after Sunday goes.

One other thing I will mention about it: It was remarkable how much we were able to do with money now that it wasn't consumed by a building and salaries. We were able to help out people in difficulties--both members and non-members--in all kinds of tangible ways.

Could this type of thing only happen in a house? Of course not, but perhaps a house is more amenable to a low-overhead, egalitarian and interactive gathering, whereas a traditional church building (which is essentially an auditorium) lends itself more to the dynamic of a lecturer addressing an audience.
I suppose I ought to read the book and see what the objection is.
Needless to say, that would be my recommendation.

Some other recommendations:

An excellent essay by Len Hjalmarson entitled "Leaving the Church to Find the Church": http://www.next-wave.org/jun01/leavingchurch.htm

Books:
Missional Church edited by Darrell L. Guder
Rethinking the Wineskin and Who's Your Covering, also by Frank Viola
Paul's Idea of Community by Robert Banks
Going to Church in the First Century by Robert Banks
The Problem of Wineskins by Howard Snyder
Ekklesia by Steve Atkerson
The Open Church by James Rutz
Houses that Changed the World by Wolfgang Simson
The Connecting Church by Randy Frazee
The Leadership Paradox by Denny Gunderson
The Externally Focused Church by Rusaw & Swanson
The Different Drum by M. Scott Peck
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:09 pm

Danny,
You wrote:No one familiar with the New Testament would dispute these claims. The question is, were the settings in which Jesus and Paul taught considered normative church gatherings?
Yes, they were normative. Jesus got up and read and taught. It was his teachings they thought unusual, not him teaching itself. Paul was invited to do the "normal" thing in the synagogues (give a scripture teaching) several times in Acts.
You also wrote:Was the earliest church methodology of gathered meetings based primarily around the didactic lectures of a single individual, or did it tend to be more interactive? Paul's description of church gatherings in the following scriptures lead me towards believing the latter:
Scripture readings and teaching continued to be the norm after Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. However, the early church meetings were more "animated" with the presence of the Spirit and the spiritual gifts among its members. Though these giftings were there, the church has always kept the reading and teaching the of Word central (see the Pastoral letters written late in Paul's life).

The early churches had an order of how they went about things that was probably not a lot different than we do today. I don't know what order they "went in" offhand (I could look into it). I know the synagogues had a certain order, like for singing and when it was "time" for Jesus to get up and give a reading and teaching.

I'd say that wherever each church was located, it probably followed a combination of synagogue and other local organizations (like trade guilds, etc.) in how their meetings were conducted. They may have patterned them to some extent on pagan religions. Like in Corinth, some of the Jewish women [and probably Jewish men also] were offended when Gentile women took off their head coverings. This was the normal thing for pagan women to do in their former religion---after they became initiated they took off their covering to symbolize their "being laid bare" to the community as full members.

I know what you mean, I think, Danny. Just tonite I was talking with some folks about this after a "recovery meeting" I go to. It's held in the Methodist church I've been going to some. We were discussing the charismatic movement, which I was around to see when it first happened (early 70s). Part of what we talked about was, "What if someone felt led by the Spirit to prophesy?" in this Methodist church. Several people in the church are charismatic, including the pastor. But the consensus was that in this particular church you couldn't do it (and might be escorted out)....

I visited an Assemblies of God church a couple years ago, my former denomination that believes in all the gifts. While there, a lady raised her hand to ask the pastor if she could give a word of prophesy. I was ??? Ask? to prophesy? in a Pentecostal church?

During the charismatic movement (back in the 70s) no one had to "ask" permission to exercise the gifts. That is, on the vocal gifts which occurred during spontaneous worship (which incidentally, back then, was sort of included in the "order" of the service. We would wait till it got totally silent and, after it was obvious no gift was going to happen, we proceeded on).

The Word was central but we had a time to allow gifts to happen. I think the earliest churches were just like this also. There was structure to the services (meetings) but anyone was free to speak in a vocal gift: We gave the Spirit "time to move." I've seen the gifts operate in big Pentecostal churches too. 3,000 people totally united in the Spirit, the gifts in operation.

What was strange this evening was trying to explain these things to people who were maybe, 5 years old in the 70s. They haven't seen the Spirit move like I have. It's hard to explain these kinds of things....
-------------------------------

Here's a Dan Kimball "house-church" article y'all might find interesting:
Reality Church?
I've been to a couple of house churches but never got into the "movement." That is, if we don't count it as "church" like: when I go to my neighbors' apartment and we talk about God & the Bible...and pizza parties at Mom's (when we talk about the same)....
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:25 am

Danny: The question is, were the settings in which Jesus and Paul taught considered normative church gatherings?

Rick: Yes, they were normative. Jesus got up and read and taught. It was his teachings they thought unusual, not him teaching itself. Paul was invited to do the "normal" thing in the synagogues (give a scripture teaching) several times in Acts.
I would disagree.

Jesus' teaching occurred in a Jewish milieu, before the existence of the Christian church. Paul's "arguing" at the Jewish synagogue in Ephesus for three months was consistent with Jewish custom of that time. Jewish synagogue meetings centered around the reading, teaching and discussion of Torah.

Paul's teaching at the Hall of Tyrannus, on the other hand, occurred during the mid-day "siesta" when the population took a meal and respite from working in the Mediterranean heat. Paul's purpose in Ephesus, as in other cities, was to proclaim the gospel, teach the converts, train workers and plant churches. The Hall of Tyrannus, I believe, served the purpose of evangelism (in a culture where listening to orators of rhetoric was a favorite form of entertainment) and training. Since this thread is based on a Frank Viola book, I'll quote from another of Viola's books:
Paul mends tents in the morning, beginning before sunrise, preaches in the afternoon, then mends tents again in the evening. With his own hands, Paul supports himself and the eight men he is training. He often goes hungry and thirsty (Acts 20:34, 1 Cor. 4:11-12).

The community of Christians in Ephesus is meeting from house to house while Paul conducts the work from the Hall of Tyrannus. One of the homes where the church gathers is the house of Priscilla and Aquila (Acts 20:20, 1 Cor. 16:19). Paul has received a wide-open door to preach the gospel in Ephesus; however, he encounters many adversaries (1 Cor. 16:9). On top of this, on a daily basis he experiences anxiety over the well-being of the eight churches he has planted (2 Cor. 11:28).

Paul will preach and teach in the Hall of Tyrannus for two years. During that time, he will unfold the "whole will and purpose of God" (Acts 20:27). He will also counsel the believers on a regular basis, admonishing them with tears (Acts 20:31). Many people from Asia, both Jews and Greeks, will visit the new work in Ephesus and hear Paul preach. One such man is Philemon, a well-to-do business man from the wealthy town of Colosse (about 100 miles east of Ephesus).

Philemon owns a slave named Onesimus. Paul leads Philemon to Christ, and he becomes a help to Paul. After their short stay, Philemon and Onesimus head back to their home in Colosse.

At the end of two years, Paul will send his eight apprentice-companions throughout the region. These men will plant new churches all over Asia Minor. Some of these churches are listed in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. As a result of Paul's ministry in Ephesus and his sending out of these men to the neighboring cities, "the whole of Asia Minor" will hear the word of the Lord (Acts 19:10). The Body of Jesus Christ--the community who expresses God's nature--is growing in Ephesus as well as throughout all of Asia Minor. Paul will spend a total of three years laboring in Ephesus. This is his longest church planting visit (Acts 20:31).

- The Untold Story of the New Testament Church
Early Christian gatherings were certainly based, at least in part, on synagogue meetings. We can't lose sight, however, on the significance of Pentecost. Whereas traditional Jewish synagogue meetings were centered around the Torah, early Christian gatherings were centered around the person of the risen Christ via the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Funny you should mention Dan Kimball. I blogged not too long ago about, in part, my experience of visiting his church in Santa Cruz: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... -edge.html
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:29 am

Danny,

I missed Acts 20:20, thanks (yes, they did meet in homes in Ephesus).

I don't make sharp distinctions with Jewish/Christian as far as Jesus...then Peter & Paul, etc. In other words, I don't feel they all a sudden made major changes. Paul always went to a synagogue if a town had one. Like in Acts 13:4From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. 15After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak."

As far as Paul "arguing" goes, this was probably the normal custom among Jewish elders in the synagogues (except their "arguing" would be what we call "reasoning"). I think 1 Corinthians 12-14 is most likely based on what Paul knew from regular synagogue order. E.g., "Let two or three prophets speak and the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged" (1 Cor 14:29-31, NKJV). Doesn't this remind you of "Rabbi such & such said...then Rabbi so & so said"? (Weighing things out, what each one said, making a consensus decision, like a "body")....
You wrote:Whereas traditional Jewish synagogue meetings were centered around the Torah, early Christian gatherings were centered around the person of the risen Christ via the presence of the Holy Spirit.
The synagogues and the early church were centered around God and the readings and teachings, etc. I don't think they made a distinction between the written word and God (or God and Jesus for the Christians). Put another way, I can't conceive of the early Christians thinking something like, "Okay, let's forget about the Bible for now and get into the gifts of the Spirit" (I don't think you were saying this, I hope not anyway), :wink:
Frank Viola wrote:Paul will preach and teach in the Hall of Tyrannus for two years. During that time, he will unfold the "whole will and purpose of God" (Acts 20:27). He will also counsel the believers on a regular basis, admonishing them with tears (Acts 20:31). Many people from Asia, both Jews and Greeks, will visit the new work in Ephesus and hear Paul preach.
On "preach and teach."
Back then I don't think they thought like we do: "Get saved first...then maybe become a real disciple later." I doubt they saw that type of "division" at all.

Btw, the table of contents of Pagan Christianity almost follows Gene Edwards' topical arrangement to a T. Did Barna & Viola cite him?

Lastly, Dan Kimball spoke on Converse With Scholars Thursday nite (on emerging and his most recent book, "They Like Jesus But Not the Church") and it should be ready to load any time now. Also, I think I saw your Dan Kimball blog last week (but didn't know his church was one you visited). Thanks.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:59 am

Hi Rick,

I think we're pretty much in agreement here on most points, except I would posit that there was a significant difference in Christian gatherings post Pentecost. As you probably know, the synagogue most likely developed during the Babylonian exile as a substitute for the temple, which lay in ruins hundreds of miles away in Jerusalem. After the return from exile and rebuilding of the temple, Jews gathered at both synagogue and temple. One was centered around the reading and interpretation of scripture (and served as a sort of hub for the local Jewish community), the other was viewed as the place where God's presence resided on earth. The object lesson of Pentecost was that God's shekinah presence was now residing in the followers of Jesus, particularly when they gathered to form a "living temple". This object lesson was made complete at 70 A.D.

Paul was a bridge between the Jewish world and the Gentile world. His synagogue activities were (I believe) largely evangelistic in intent. He knew how to play the rabbinic exegetical game in the synagogue as well as the public orator game at Mars Hill. He had the unique ability to be "all things to all men".

BTW, I love N.T. Wright's analogy about Jesus and Paul: That Jesus is like the composer who writes a symphony and Paul is like the conductor who then performs and interprets it.

You're right, I'm by no means implying that the early Christians set scripture aside (which, to them would have meant the "Old Testament" plus eventually some of their own writings). What seems to be clear though is that much was going on in addition to scripture study. There was prophecy, prayer, a communal meal, singing, recitation of creeds, testimonies, tongues, interpretation of tongues, etc. Of course, we tend to think in terms of a 90 minute Sunday service whereas the early Christians were meeting continuously, so they would have had plenty of time for all of these along with exposition of scripture and teaching of doctrine.

This still, in my mind, is the way it "ought to" be done: Have interactive "Body of Christ" gatherings ala the Pauline scriptures I cited earlier and have gatherings designed for Bible study and doctrinal instruction. Protestant Christianity has tended to place an inordinate emphasis on the latter and undervalued the former.

I realize now that I never answered your earlier question about Gene Edwards. The only book I've read by him is A Tale of Three Kings, which, as I recall, I didn't much care for (though many other people love it). I know that Edwards is a controversial figure and flamboyant personality. I also know that Viola was at one time a "disciple" of Edwards. I don't see any citations of Edwards in Pagan Christianity, though in the Acknowledgments at the front of the book Viola thanks Gene Edwards "for your pioneering efforts and your personal encouragement."

I didn't comment earlier on the content of the Dan Kimball article that you posted. I enjoyed the creativity, but it struck me a bit as wishful thinking and maybe even slightly smug. It seemed as if Kimball were saying to the droves that are leaving the "institutional" church, "You'll be back."
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Post by _Steve » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:00 pm

Danny,

Why did you come to Santa Cruz and not look me up?

My views on everything you mentioned are very much like yours, which is why I haven't posted on this thread previously. You have answered everything just about the way I would have.

Interesting that you have the same take on Edwards' "Tale of Three Kings" as I had, years ago, when I read it. Everybody else raved about it. I thought he made some valid points, but he seemed very condescending and smug—often saying things that sounded essentially tantamount to, "Less-enlightened folks may not recognize the brilliance in the point I'm making, but that's okay, because when you attain to the level of gnosis that I have, you can bear readily with fools."

Edwards' seeming elitism has always put me off, and has prevented me from reading Viola up to this point—only because I knew he was connected to Edwards' movement. I should have given him more of a chance. On your recommendation, I have ordered Pagan Christianity. I only fear, from seeing the table of contents, that I will find he has written the book I was hoping someday to write myself!

Oh well! Snooze, ya lose!
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:34 pm

Why did you come to Santa Cruz and not look me up?
I believe at the time I thought you were still living in Oregon. Next time I'm in Santa Cruz, I will let you know! I would consider it a great honor to meet you in person.

One of the most common criticisms against Viola (and one I concur with) is that he can come across as too strident at times. Perhaps it's just righteous indignation. One of Barna's contributions to the re-release of Pagan Christianity seems to be to have toned Viola down a bit.
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:01 pm

Quick post. The last time I tried to find something about Gene Edwards (on the web) was around 5 years ago (and couldn't find anything). My cousin, who had read and gave me two of his books, has been in on planting two churches since '97. He came across Edwards' stuff while looking into "methodology" or what have you, and just wanted my opinion.

Anyway, today I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Edwards and went to his website. Chapter One of Beyond Radical (1999) is available online. There's also some audio but I haven't listened. Okay, I'm going to see if my library will get Pagan Christianity (as soon as I finish this N.T. Wright book).

Listen to the Larry Norman interview I have on the Announcement board.
C'mon! Let's get really radical!!!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

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