Revelation 14:1-4 (NASB)
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb {was} standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard {was} like {the sound} of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These {are} the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
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If God created man, as it says in Genesis, are not these the first fruits of all of creation?
"...they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth."
Also...
Revelation 7:4 (NASB) And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel
Remember
Jam 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
Jam 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
Jam 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
Jam 1:4 And let endurance have {its} perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing....
And
Jam 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
Jam 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Jam 1:19 {This} you know, my beloved brethren....
It looks to me like the first fruits came from the twelve tribes.
Blessings,
Lazarus43
James 1:1
"The firstfruits of the Spirit..." in context, seems to me to speak of a redemption of our spirit by the Holy Spirit occurring first, before the physical body as, "we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."Father_of_five wrote:Doug,
I agree with you. Here is a passage from Romans that supports your view.
Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Speaking of the resurrection, it states that the "sons of God" (Christians) will first be revealed (firstfruits), then all of God's creation will follow and share in the same glorious liberty with the children of God.
Todd
Blessings,
Lazarus43
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
As Lazarus pointed out in the last post, Romans 8 does not say that Christians are the "firstfruits" of the creation—in fact, it implies that the "sons of God" and the creation will both be redeemed at the same time. The use of firstfruits in this passage is speaking of our own redemption occurring in phases: the receiving of the Spirit is the "firstfruits" of our salvation privileges—conveying the same idea as "the guarantee" (or "earnest" in KJV) in Eph.1:13-14. The harvest, in both Romans and Ephesians, is in the redemption of our body, which I understand to be the resurrection to come.
I have no problem with allowing James to include the whole of creation in his statement in James 1:19 (though I am inclined to think he is referring to the church, which is a "new creation"). That is, since there will be a general restoration of all things, the first converts to Christianity, who happened to be Jewish, were the very beginning (or firstfruits) of that enterprise, which will be culminated on the Last Day.
If James is thinking, however, of the church as the "new creation," which is being "harvested" throughout the present age, then the statement simply refers to the Jewish Christians (the first several thousand converts) in contrast to all others who would later be brought into Christ throughout the present age.
Whichever way James intends his readers to understand the word "creation," it remains true that he tells his readers (who are Christian converts among the twelve tribes) that they are the fistfruits. To my knowledge, the only other group of people who are called by this name in the New Testament are the 144,000, who were sealed by God to preserve them from the impending holocaust of AD 70 (Of course, I am presupposing a certain view of Revelation 7, which seems to me justified by the evidence).
In the Old Testament, faithful Israel was also called by this title (Jer.2:3/ Hos.9:10). Elsewhere in the New Testament, individual Christians are said to be the "firstfruits" of their geographical region (Rom.16:5/1 Cor.16:15)—meaning the first converts there—which seems to use the term as I am understanding it in James, that is, as "first converts."
In saying the message of the epistles is for all Christians, we need to be discriminating in recognizing which parts are relevant to all Christians, and which are not. Paul was speaking specifically to the Corinthians (not all Christians) when he wrote: " I could not speak to you as to spiritual people...I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able" (1 Cor.3:1-2). He specifically mentions that there are other Christians to whom this statement would not be applicable (2:6).
The epistles frequently include personal references that applied to their original audience, but not to everybody (e.g., Rom.15:22-24; 16:1-2/1 Cor.1:11/Gal.4:10-16/Phil.4:3/2 Thess.2:5/Philem.22/Heb.13:23/2 John 4/ 3 John 14/ Rev.2:4, 6 etc.). Why is it difficult to allow this element in James?
I have no problem with allowing James to include the whole of creation in his statement in James 1:19 (though I am inclined to think he is referring to the church, which is a "new creation"). That is, since there will be a general restoration of all things, the first converts to Christianity, who happened to be Jewish, were the very beginning (or firstfruits) of that enterprise, which will be culminated on the Last Day.
If James is thinking, however, of the church as the "new creation," which is being "harvested" throughout the present age, then the statement simply refers to the Jewish Christians (the first several thousand converts) in contrast to all others who would later be brought into Christ throughout the present age.
Whichever way James intends his readers to understand the word "creation," it remains true that he tells his readers (who are Christian converts among the twelve tribes) that they are the fistfruits. To my knowledge, the only other group of people who are called by this name in the New Testament are the 144,000, who were sealed by God to preserve them from the impending holocaust of AD 70 (Of course, I am presupposing a certain view of Revelation 7, which seems to me justified by the evidence).
In the Old Testament, faithful Israel was also called by this title (Jer.2:3/ Hos.9:10). Elsewhere in the New Testament, individual Christians are said to be the "firstfruits" of their geographical region (Rom.16:5/1 Cor.16:15)—meaning the first converts there—which seems to use the term as I am understanding it in James, that is, as "first converts."
In saying the message of the epistles is for all Christians, we need to be discriminating in recognizing which parts are relevant to all Christians, and which are not. Paul was speaking specifically to the Corinthians (not all Christians) when he wrote: " I could not speak to you as to spiritual people...I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able" (1 Cor.3:1-2). He specifically mentions that there are other Christians to whom this statement would not be applicable (2:6).
The epistles frequently include personal references that applied to their original audience, but not to everybody (e.g., Rom.15:22-24; 16:1-2/1 Cor.1:11/Gal.4:10-16/Phil.4:3/2 Thess.2:5/Philem.22/Heb.13:23/2 John 4/ 3 John 14/ Rev.2:4, 6 etc.). Why is it difficult to allow this element in James?
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Father_of_five
- Posts: 213
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The reason I posted Rom 8:18-23 was to support Doug's view that there is a contrast between Christians and the creation. Doug has pointed out that there is to be a renewal of God's creation following the redemption of the Sons of God. This passage in Romans supports that idea very well. I agree that the term "firstfruits" as used here in Romans 8:23 is not referring to same thing as in James.
Todd
It seems to me that the creation will be redeemed after the resurrection of the Sons of God according to this passage in Romans and 1 Cor 15. Although, I admit it could be moments later rather than some extended period of time later. Also, just for the record, I believe that non-Christians are part of the "creation" mentioned here.Steve wrote:As Lazarus pointed out in the last post, Romans 8 does not say that Christians are the "firstfruits" of the creation—in fact, it implies that the "sons of God" and the creation will both be redeemed at the same time.
Todd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I chose the example in James for several reasons. First, it is a fairly non-emotional subject for most people reading it and therefore I wouldn't offend anyone, I hope. Probably most people would say "who cares". The point of this entire post is to try to understand the correct way of looking at the NT and understanding it.
As I understand Steve's hermeneutical approach:
1. We must consider the audience that each NT book is written to. If it is Jew's or Greeks.
2. We must also take into account that this was written to Christians (Greek or Jew depending on the audience) of the first century specifically.
3. We also have to remember that these epistles are letters to specific person(s) and in effect we are reading someone else's mail when we read them.
So when looking at James 1:18 for example "...that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" Steve tells us that the "we" in this verse are Jews because it was James writing to the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." And that this is to be understood to be first century Jews only because this was written to Jews of that time.
So, to be consistent with this hermeneutical approach, lets look at another verse that brings up a few questions. 1 Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -" So Paul is writing to Greeks in Corinth in the first century (just like James was writing to Jews of the same time period). The "I" is Paul and the "you" are the Greek Christians in Corinth. Right? And the "we" in this verse, applying Steve's hermeneutical approach, would apply to the Greek Christians of that specific time period. And therefore it appears that at least some Corinthian Christians from the first century (the "we" in 1 Cor 15:51) would not sleep(die). Has anyone seen any 2000 year old people around??
Obviously applying the same hermeneutical approach in 1 Cor 15:51 leads us to a conclusion that is tenuous, at best. I must have misunderstood Steve's method or I am not applying it correctly. I have several other verses that I could bring up with the same type of problem if I apply the above method of interpretation, but I will leave it with this in hopes that someone can help me understand my dilemma. Are we not to be consistent in our approach?
Any thoughts?
Your brother in Christ.
Doug
As I understand Steve's hermeneutical approach:
1. We must consider the audience that each NT book is written to. If it is Jew's or Greeks.
2. We must also take into account that this was written to Christians (Greek or Jew depending on the audience) of the first century specifically.
3. We also have to remember that these epistles are letters to specific person(s) and in effect we are reading someone else's mail when we read them.
So when looking at James 1:18 for example "...that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" Steve tells us that the "we" in this verse are Jews because it was James writing to the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." And that this is to be understood to be first century Jews only because this was written to Jews of that time.
So, to be consistent with this hermeneutical approach, lets look at another verse that brings up a few questions. 1 Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -" So Paul is writing to Greeks in Corinth in the first century (just like James was writing to Jews of the same time period). The "I" is Paul and the "you" are the Greek Christians in Corinth. Right? And the "we" in this verse, applying Steve's hermeneutical approach, would apply to the Greek Christians of that specific time period. And therefore it appears that at least some Corinthian Christians from the first century (the "we" in 1 Cor 15:51) would not sleep(die). Has anyone seen any 2000 year old people around??
Obviously applying the same hermeneutical approach in 1 Cor 15:51 leads us to a conclusion that is tenuous, at best. I must have misunderstood Steve's method or I am not applying it correctly. I have several other verses that I could bring up with the same type of problem if I apply the above method of interpretation, but I will leave it with this in hopes that someone can help me understand my dilemma. Are we not to be consistent in our approach?
Any thoughts?
Your brother in Christ.
Doug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
to summarize why I think that James 1:18 is speaking of all Christians from the cross to His second coming and not just the first century Christians is that the word Ktisma is used and defined elsewhere in the Bible without it being a reference to the Church specifically. It is used in the NT four times only and the other three times they appear to be talking about creatures or created things and not specifically the "church". If we are to use scripture to interpret scripture (as I have heard Steve say several times) then lets look at the other 3 cases of Ktisma and determine how the Bible defines it.
1. 1 Tim 4:4 "For everything created (Ktisma) by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude;"
This example does not appear to be speaking of the "Church", at least to me.
2. Rev 5:13 "And every created (Ktisma) thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
This example appears to be proclaiming that all of creation (everything, not just the Church, although this includes the Church, and angels, and every created thing.) is making the proclamation. Again this does not look like a specific reference to the "Church" alone.
3. Rev 8:9 "And a third of the creatures (Ktisma) which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships where destroyed"
This example again does not appear to me to be talking solely of the "Church", and I think that is pretty obvious to all.
Now we come to James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures. (Ktisma)". At this point do we redefine the word Ktisma as "Church" or do we use the other examples of the NT to be a guide to our understanding of the meaning of this word? Are we (you and I, Christians of this time period) not considered a kind of first fruits of God's creation, just like the Jewish Christians that James was writing to in the first century, in the sense that all of creation is to be renewed at the end of time? To be consistent in our hermeneutics, which I would assume that is what we want to do, then this is the logical explanation of what is being said in James 1:18.
Steve says "I have no problem with allowing James to include the whole of creation in his statement in James 1:19 (though I am inclined to think he is referring to the church, which is a "new creation"). "... I have to ask Steve why would you limit the definition of Ktisma in this case to the church and not all creation or creatures when it appears that the other three times it is used it is not restricting that definition to the church alone? I wonder if your presuppositions of Rev chapter 7 in particular forces you to twist the meaning of the word Ktisma in James 1:18 from what seems so obvious, particularly given the other examples. I don't think you are wrong in saying that the Jews being written to are a kind of first fruits, and from how it is worded in James 1:18, I believe that includes us as well.
Brother Steve I love you and I hope this helps, and I may be way wrong in my understanding of this and hope that you or someone else can point me in the right direction if they see something illogical in my understanding of how we interpret scriptures. I am just a fellow brother here to learn and help others learn as well.
I am open to criticism and want to learn. Don't worry, I cannot be offended so go ahead and let me have it.
Your brother in Christ
Doug
1. 1 Tim 4:4 "For everything created (Ktisma) by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude;"
This example does not appear to be speaking of the "Church", at least to me.
2. Rev 5:13 "And every created (Ktisma) thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
This example appears to be proclaiming that all of creation (everything, not just the Church, although this includes the Church, and angels, and every created thing.) is making the proclamation. Again this does not look like a specific reference to the "Church" alone.
3. Rev 8:9 "And a third of the creatures (Ktisma) which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships where destroyed"
This example again does not appear to me to be talking solely of the "Church", and I think that is pretty obvious to all.
Now we come to James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures. (Ktisma)". At this point do we redefine the word Ktisma as "Church" or do we use the other examples of the NT to be a guide to our understanding of the meaning of this word? Are we (you and I, Christians of this time period) not considered a kind of first fruits of God's creation, just like the Jewish Christians that James was writing to in the first century, in the sense that all of creation is to be renewed at the end of time? To be consistent in our hermeneutics, which I would assume that is what we want to do, then this is the logical explanation of what is being said in James 1:18.
Steve says "I have no problem with allowing James to include the whole of creation in his statement in James 1:19 (though I am inclined to think he is referring to the church, which is a "new creation"). "... I have to ask Steve why would you limit the definition of Ktisma in this case to the church and not all creation or creatures when it appears that the other three times it is used it is not restricting that definition to the church alone? I wonder if your presuppositions of Rev chapter 7 in particular forces you to twist the meaning of the word Ktisma in James 1:18 from what seems so obvious, particularly given the other examples. I don't think you are wrong in saying that the Jews being written to are a kind of first fruits, and from how it is worded in James 1:18, I believe that includes us as well.
Brother Steve I love you and I hope this helps, and I may be way wrong in my understanding of this and hope that you or someone else can point me in the right direction if they see something illogical in my understanding of how we interpret scriptures. I am just a fellow brother here to learn and help others learn as well.
I am open to criticism and want to learn. Don't worry, I cannot be offended so go ahead and let me have it.
Your brother in Christ
Doug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I have another question about hermeneutics that is relevant to our above discussion. Is there any overall methodology of understanding the Scriptures that is supposed to be used? Are we to be consistent in our approach? It appears to me that people come up with a theology first, then shoe-horn the Scriptures into that understanding, like a Calvenist or Dispensationalist appears to do from my perspective.
I started by asking who was the NT written to? At first I would have thought this to be an easy question, but obviously it is not, at least for some. I believe the NT was written to the Church (Christians from the Cross until His 2nd coming). I do realize that there are personal statements made in the NT and the Epistles, for example 1 Tim 5:23 "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities", but overall I believe that even these personal statements are for the benefit of the Church ultimately. God is the author and this is His word to His people (the Church).
I have tried to point out from my above posts that I think a broader view needs to be taken in regards to who the NT is written to. If I am wrong I have no problems admitting error, if a more logical explanation is to be found. The evidence so far does not seem to be strong in this case. To say that James ministry was restricted to the Jews and therefore the book of James was specifically to Jewish Christians leads to some problems if you are to be consistent in that approach throughout the NT. As I have already demonstrated in the above posts. At least it appears to me, and I just keep asking because the answers so far, except for Todds, have not satisfied the problems that Steve's approach encounters. I am not looking to be "right", I only want to understand HOW we are to do this so that I might be able to apply a consistent hermeneutics in the future.
For example James 4:1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war.......Adulterers and adulteresses!" Is this written to "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad"? the "firstfruits of His creatures"? As Steve would have us understand it, the first century Jewish Christian??? I think this example makes my point. I don't understand how we are to restrict the book of James in the way that Steve suggests (first century Jewish Christians). Do we change who this is addressed to to fit our theological presuppositions? I don't know, I am only asking. I have seen many have viewed this post, and very few have commented...... Am I not making any logical sense? Am I so far in left field that people just ignore it?
I am just a fellow brother in Christ, looking for understanding.
Doug
I started by asking who was the NT written to? At first I would have thought this to be an easy question, but obviously it is not, at least for some. I believe the NT was written to the Church (Christians from the Cross until His 2nd coming). I do realize that there are personal statements made in the NT and the Epistles, for example 1 Tim 5:23 "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities", but overall I believe that even these personal statements are for the benefit of the Church ultimately. God is the author and this is His word to His people (the Church).
I have tried to point out from my above posts that I think a broader view needs to be taken in regards to who the NT is written to. If I am wrong I have no problems admitting error, if a more logical explanation is to be found. The evidence so far does not seem to be strong in this case. To say that James ministry was restricted to the Jews and therefore the book of James was specifically to Jewish Christians leads to some problems if you are to be consistent in that approach throughout the NT. As I have already demonstrated in the above posts. At least it appears to me, and I just keep asking because the answers so far, except for Todds, have not satisfied the problems that Steve's approach encounters. I am not looking to be "right", I only want to understand HOW we are to do this so that I might be able to apply a consistent hermeneutics in the future.
For example James 4:1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war.......Adulterers and adulteresses!" Is this written to "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad"? the "firstfruits of His creatures"? As Steve would have us understand it, the first century Jewish Christian??? I think this example makes my point. I don't understand how we are to restrict the book of James in the way that Steve suggests (first century Jewish Christians). Do we change who this is addressed to to fit our theological presuppositions? I don't know, I am only asking. I have seen many have viewed this post, and very few have commented...... Am I not making any logical sense? Am I so far in left field that people just ignore it?
I am just a fellow brother in Christ, looking for understanding.
Doug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
You know when I asked my dad, who was the NT written to (or for), he said.... The world. Wow! You know, he is right.
Consider Jesus when he spoke to the multitudes, He spoke in parables and those that are His will understand, and those that are not will not, but He did speak to them all.
I guess I should have asked my dad sooner, lol
Doug
Consider Jesus when he spoke to the multitudes, He spoke in parables and those that are His will understand, and those that are not will not, but He did speak to them all.
I guess I should have asked my dad sooner, lol
Doug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: