Top 10 UR Verses

Post by **_mattrose** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:09 pm

We're continuing our 'Eternity' Series in our Sunday night group and this week we're talking about the Universal Reconciliation view. I figured a decent way to discuss this view would be to just discuss the 10 verses I see most often associated with the UR position. Here are the 10 I picked to provoke discussion...

God is love (1 John 4:8)

God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3b-4)

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Col 1:19-20)

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. (Ephesians 1:9-10)

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. (John 12:32)

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

That we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
(1 Timothy 4:10)

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:18-19)

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. (1 John 4:4)

Every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God (Romans 14:11)

Is there an extremely KEY verse that you think I am missing????

Post by **_TK** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:55 pm

Possibly Luke 2:10:

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

TK

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:31 pm

I've compiled a list of about 40 such scriptures. Here are a few other significant ones:

1 Tim. 4:9-10: "This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

Rom. 11:32: "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Heb. 2:9: "In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

Heb. 9:12: "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."

1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

Rev. 5:13: "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!'"

Post by **_mattrose** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:21 pm

Thanks guys

Post by **_Homer** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:23 pm

Matt,

You might be interested in this challenge in "An Open Letter to Universalists...." by Eric Landstrom, another "10" to consider:

I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:

1. The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.

2. The wicked repenting in the after life.

3. The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.

4. The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.

5. The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.

6. God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).

7. The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

8. Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.

9. Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.

10. Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.

Needless to say, the CUs make many assumptions. Perhaps those in your class can find some actual proof. Well, probably not.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:46 pm

Needless to say, the CUs make many assumptions. Perhaps those in your class can find some actual proof. Well, probably not.

Everyone makes assumptions because the fact is that the bible isn't clear on these things therefore there isn't really absolute proof either way.
But if one makes the ASSUMPTION that the events in Revelation are sequential after the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire, then there is scriptural support for CU.

Post by **_mattrose** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:28 pm

Thanks for the comments. We just had our study and it was a very good and edifying discussion.

Personally, I consider Universal Reconciliation to be the 3rd best of the 3 leading options. Of the 10 verses we discussed, the group only found 3 or 4 to be decent evidence for that camp. The rest were pretty easily, and I think legitimately, understood in a non Universalist way.

Talbott's idea that:
1) God wants everyone saved (all-loving)
2) God has the power to save (all-powerful)
THEREFORE, All will be saved

Falls short in my opinion. Talbott seems to believe that just b/c God COULD do something means He WOULD do that thing (at least in this case). Most Christians agree with 1 & 2 and yet reject 3. I don't agree with Talbott that this is an inconsistent view. God certainly does want everyone saved. And He certainly COULD save them. But at what cost? What would be lost if He WOULD do that? I think quite a bit. Talbott doesn't even seem to dialogue with the difference b/w COULD & WOULD. He quotes a couple passages that argue that God DOES do everything He WANTS to do, but this is clearly not the case in my opinion.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:29 pm

He quotes a couple passages that argue that God DOES do everything He WANTS to do, but this is clearly not the case in my opinion.

God says twice in Isiah that he will do everything he wants to do and IMO at least, that's precisely why you can't find physical death as the deadline for salvation of the soul. Another words God has left that option open and it seems to me there would be only one reason that this option remains open, because in some way He plans to use it.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:24 pm

Here are a couple of other Key passages which support the reconciliation:

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

coupled with

... if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

According to these two passages, every one under the earth (seemingly a reference to those in Gehenna) will bow their knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and thus confessing, according to Rom 10:9 will be saved.

The following seems to be another key passage:

But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself. Philippians 3:20,21

Post by **_Christopher** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:36 am

Hi Matt,

As you might already know from previous posts, I’m a devout agnostic on this topic.

But I will say in Talbott’s defense that I would probably summarize his case more along the lines of God never giving up on that which He wants rather than forcing His will on others in some Calvinistic way. From a human standpoint, it would be more like a father who refuses to close the door on reconciliation of a rebellious child, and indeed, seeking diligently to restore that relationship.

My sense from his book is that Talbott would say that since God has an eternity to win over every soul through various means, He will eventually win everyone. So to Talbott, it’s in that sense that He can and will save everyone. Once all obstacles of blind personal ambition and agenda are removed so people can see clearly, God is beautiful enough to win the affections and submission of even the most hard-hearted. So it’s a combination of God’s magnificence and judgment, rather than His ability to supercede someone’s free will , that eventually causes people to turn to him.

I don’t know whether that is true or not since scripture is not clear enough about it either way.

I will say though that although I was fairly impressed with Talbott’s case in his book, I thought that he did tend to state his premise a little more authoritatively than he ought. The scripture doesn’t speak that authoritatively on the issue so I think we should all approach this topic with great humility lest we be found to have judged the lost wrongly, whether it be too generously or too harshly.

Just my opinion.