What does Jesus mean?

[Guest]

dmatic,

will you try to define what you think Paul meant by "works of the law"?

"Works of Law" = adherance to the Law of Moses, and placing one's confidence in performance.


Luke 18:9-14 (New King James Version)

9. Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10. “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13. And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Pharisee more than complied with the Law of Moses but did not benefit by doing so; his heart was not right.

Neither I, nor I am sure Paidion, believe that obedience is optional. The question is whether we are to obey Christ or Moses. You apparently do not recognize any difference between the LOM and the teachings of Jesus. I view Jesus' teachings as being as high above the LOM as calculus is above addition and subtraction. Both are good in and of themselves.

[Guest]

Thank you Homer. You wrote:

The Pharisee more than complied with the Law of Moses but did not benefit by doing so; his heart was not right.

I'm glad you added that the Pharisee "more than complied"...because by adding to, they were found to be not in compliance!

Jesus complied with the law of Moses, but His heart was right! Presumably, you would agree? So, hopefully, you are not saying that compliance with God's law means that one's heart is not right! I think that the Apostle John made a case against the idea that one can have his heart right without being in compliance to God's Law! So, hopefully, we can move on toward the conclusion that keeping God's Law is a part of having one's heart right. Those who keep God's commandments love Him, and those who do not keep His commandments, do not love Him.

Are you 'comfortable' with that conclusion?

Further, you wrote:

Neither I, nor I am sure Paidion, believe that obedience is optional. The question is whether we are to obey Christ or Moses. You apparently do not recognize any difference between the LOM and the teachings of Jesus. I view Jesus' teachings as being as high above the LOM as calculus is above addition and subtraction. Both are good in and of themselves.

I have not said that I do not recognize a difference. What I do say is that the teachings are NOT in contradiction with one another! My position includes the idea that one can be in compliance with both! (Because really, they are one and from the same source Who does not change!) The teachings are not mutually exclusive, as you and Paidion have implied! In other words, we can and should obey God's commandments, as given through Moses and Y'Shua! To disregard and disobey even the least of these commandments and to teach others that it's OK to disobey them is to be called least in the kingdom of heaven!

I'm sorry that I'm so busy, and have not answered your previous post yet. Please forgive me, and I will continue to try to get to it, next week.

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Homer, Thank you for your patience. while pondering this subject, I looked back on some of these posts and found where you had written:

You obviously do not know much about Paidion, in particular how he consistently advocates that we must live righteously before God!

may i ask you if you know how Paidion defines "righteously living before God"?

You wrote that he advocates this righteous living. A definition for advocate is one who pleads another's cause or in support of something. This brings me to ask if you think there is anyone on this site who does not think they advocate living righteously before God? Does it appear to you that I do not so advocate?

Since it appears that everyone seems to be advocating living righteously before God, a problem arises when we discover that the different advocates are saying contradictory things. The problem could be solved if we could find out who is advocating for Him rightly and not wrongly. Who truly represents God's teachings and who falsely 'mis-represents' Him?

This seems to me to identify a crux of the problem with humanity, in general, with everyone thinking they are right. "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes", Proverbs says, so who can tell him that he might be wrong about something? This problem is manifested all over the globe every day, every year, every decade and century and millenium. Arguments happen because everyone thinks they are right. These arguments lead to divisions, divorces, and destructions, including war! Everyone fighting, presumably, to prove that he is right and the other wrong. True peace evades us, not because it is deceptive but because we are! we all think we're right even though we're not. Many are deceived. Every advocate of their particular religion and its teachings thinks his way is the right way.

Regarding us, we agree that Jesus is THE way, the life and the truth, but even He warned that many would come in His name but deceive MANY!

So, once again, we're back at the problem: Who's right? Who truly advocates for God? And, who presumes to do so, yet is a false teacher? It is one thing to advocate for living righteously before God (even those that opposed Jesus did that!), but another thing to be right about it. The Pharisees opposed Jesus. Why? Because they thought they were right and He was wrong, basically. However, the chiefs knew that Jesus was the Son of God and wanted to kill Him anyway! This, by definition, is truly evil. They wanted to silence the truth to protect their ways of life. They were not "deceived" in the sense that they did know they were putting to death the heir, because they wanted to steal His inheritance! In this they were deceived.They could have repented of their errors and obtained the inheritance legally. Theier fear of losing what they did not have led to their undoing.

To get back to the point, just because someone says that they advocate living righteously before God does not mean that their definition of righteousness is the same as God's. We are instructed by "the Truth" (Mt. 6:33) to seek God's kingdom and His righteousness first (rightouseness as God defines it). God's word is truth (John 17), and does a good job of beginning to define God's definition of rightousness. Yet, there are those who advocate disregarding God's definitions in favor of their own thoughts on the matter. They even mock God's commandments and His instructions to His people and claim a better way, by saying that God's commandments are not a part of His Law. That was one of the most arrogant statements I've read on this web site.

Homer, I asked you earlier if you also thought there is something wrong with God's commandments as given through Moses. Your neglect to answer is understandable, since an honest answer may expose unwarrented boldness or even foolishness.

Making fun of The Teacher's Lessons saying that they are "no part of the True Law" is ridiculous and arrogant to the extreme, wouldn't you agree? Maybe you've had an experience of sitting in a classroom when a proud, foolish, "student" made fun of a beloved teacher? Very sad isn't it? Who rejoices in such a situation? Who commends the fools for their mocking and laughs along with them? I cry inwardly when I see people forsake God's instructions.

You may choose to follow the teachings of men that advocate disregard for God's commandments or you may choose to adopt the attitude of David, who God Himself declared to be a man after His own heart. I wish I could access one of those web sites with the Bible written, because I'd copy the whole of Psalm 119...but I don't have time to type it now... Please read, if you can find some time...at least Ps. 119:137-144.

You counseled me to interpret Jesus' "unclear statements" of Matthew 5:17-19 by using Paul's "clear statements", yet scripture warns of exactly that! Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:15ff that Paul's writings are hard to understand and the unlearned and unstable have twisted, as they have also done with the other scriptures to their own destruction. I hope to post an example of some of Paul's seeming "contradictions", and ask you to interpret them for me. Until then, I will pray that you come to see that Jesus' clear teaching is easy to see, if He gives us eyes to see.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Homer, you wrote, in answer to my question what you thought Paul meant by "works of the law":

"Works of Law" = adherance to the Law of Moses, and placing one's confidence in performance.

Certainly, we would agree that our confidence is in Christ.

God just told me to look up Is. 32:17, so I did, and I remembered it differently in the NASB, where I think it says "confidence", but the KJV has it this way: "And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever."

Obviously, this is relevant.

But, I started to respond to your definition...Now, I'm not "sure" about what I am about to tell you....but I think that Paul did not mean what you think he meant by using that phrase. I thought for a long time, as I was trying to make sense of these issues, that Paul must have meant that the "works of the law" were those things that were added because of transgressions to the Law of God as revelaed through Moses. Such as is, what must one do who has violated a command. He needed to do a "work of the law". The keeping of the commandments was not what Paul meant by the "works of the Law", though that is what most people assume. If he did mean this, then why seek to "establish the law through faith"? (Romans 3:31) If Paul was teaching people not to keep the law of God....then, he was wrong. What can I tell you? God's Word warns us not to follow those who would so teach. In fact, God even sends them to test us to see if we'll fall for it. I think this is recorded in deut. 13. Even if their "prophecies" happen, we are not to follow those who counsel us to forsake God's law and follow after other gods!

Of course, this is what has happened. People have been deceived into following other gods, but they don't even know it! They keep pagan holy days like "Beaster", and "Christ-mass" and lent, otherwise known as the forty days of weeping for Tammuz (Ez. 8). They "worship" on the pagan sun-god worshipping, "sun-day" as they forsake God's Sabbath, even though God never told them to, in His Word. Nowhere, that I know of has God changed His mind about His Sabbath day holy command.

We are servants to whom we obey. Whether of sin, (transgressing the law) unto death, or of obedience (to the law) unto righteousness. (Romans 6:16)

We also see how righteousness is rewarded with peace and assurance and confidence for ever, for God.

Now, it is Y'Shua Who empowers and enables us to keep His commands. This is grace in action. His Divine influence upon our own hearts, as paidion rightly says.

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

How can one say that the command to not commit adultery is not a part of the true law of God? This law is found in the commandments given by God to Moses. It is this thought that I am reacting to.

I agree that it is ridiculous to suggest that adultery, as long as it is done without lust in one's heart, is OK. I certainly, admit that Paidion would not think it proper, that's why i said that he wouldn't agree that that was what he was saying when he declares that the commandments given to Moses from God are not a part of His true law.

Now this is weird to do this but I’m not sure if you’re aware of your method of arguing. If you read the last statement of Paidion again you will see that he gives a list of things that he says is not part of the “true Law of God”. He specifically separates them from Laws such as adultery. I’m not going to attempt to exegete Paidion’s statement because that would be silly, but you should read what he said a little better. Here:

Notice that Jesus refers to what is to be obeyed as "these words of mine". He is not reiterating the Law given through Moses, but he is explaining THE DEEPER LAW and how it goes well beyond the Law of Moses. And it doesn't include those parts recorded in Leviticus and elsewhere about which foods to eat, what kinds of offerngs and sacrifices to make, which days to observe, new moons and Sabbaths, what to do if a fit of jealousy comes over a husband, etc. None of those things are part of THE TRUE LAW OF GOD

Tell you what, Start with the word “And” at the first part of the third sentence and read on. I think that will clear that up a little better for you, buddy.

As far as the word “Instead”, if you read that closer as well, I left it vague enough for you to misrepresent it. Had I known, I would have written it this way:

Remember, God said listen to Jesus instead of saying listen to Moses and Elijah.

I'm not sure what has informed your "seeming" of what most Christians do...but, are you suggesting that people shouldn't follow the Word of God?

Where in the world do you see that? No. But you’re suggesting that I am. My “seeming”
comes from discussions I’ve had with other comprehensive readers such as yourself over the same subjects. Q: What if I handed you a list of requirements to attain to in order to be a Christian? what would be missing from that list? A: The spirit would be missing. Q: What if you were given the Spirit of God; what would be missing? A: Nothing.

That they should follow "instead" the spirit? Now, following the Spirit is a wonderful thing! But, many follow deceiving spirits, and think they are in truth!

Well then they’re not very careful are they? The Bible shows us the character of God so reading it will help keep us informed of his methods and from being ignorant of deceiving spirits. I’m not saying that we should not read the Bible and “instead” walk around subjectively feeling out the air around us and see if we can tell what we’re supposed to do next. That’s stupid. Tell me, how am I breaking the Law of Moses by walking according to the Spirit?

The grace of God is His Law. the grace of God is His teaching! His Way!

No the Grace of God is his help.

people would not know what godliness was unless God taught them! His teaching, shows us how to deny ungodliness, and to live righteously now in this present world! Following His teachings involve following His Law. His Spirit will guide us into all truth! this truth, is His word, and contains his commandments! Jesus prayed that we would be sanctified in truth! God's word is truth!

I'm not sure why you are disagreeing sam.

I’m not sure where you are getting that I disagree. You have made a good case for reading your Bible. This I agree with. We should all read our Bibles. You have yet to show why walking according to the Spirit is not sufficient.

It seems that I’m writing one thing and you’re reading another.

Peace,
Sam

[Guest]

dmatic,

Perhaps I can tell you a story that will help you understand my position on the Law of Moses.

When I was a boy (a long time ago, before TV) I read comic books a lot, as did most boys my age. My father was a good Christian man, and very conservative. He did not think reading comic books was good for me. Seems strange now, considering what is continually in the media today, but looking back I suppose he did not like the violence in some of them, but I am just guessing. Regardless, he was much older and wiser than me.

One day my father made me an offer: $5.00 if I agreed to never read comic books again. I readily agreed! That was a lot of money for a boy in those days. I took the money and I can say I kept the bargain.

My agreement with my Father was for my own good, and a demonstration of my father's love for me. There was nothing wrong with my father's agreement with me. Like the Law of Moses, it was good, and for my own good. It protected me from something potentially harmful that I was unaware of. But it was an agreement suitable for a boy, not a man. As an adult, I no longer need to be under the agreement I made with my father. If he was alive, I am sure he would have no concern with my reading a comic book. He would know I have the discernment and maturity to recognize what I should or should not need.

Likewise, as good as the Law was, it is not needed by the person indwelt by the Spirit, and taught by Jesus and His Apostles. The Law was for a particular people of another time and place. As I have pointed out before, a person could keep the law of Moses and not be a good Christian at all.

Galatians 3:20-25 (New King James Version)

20. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


I hope and pray you will understand you can live a life pleasing to God without the Law of Moses.

[Guest]

Homer, your comic book analogy as well as the rest of your post makes the truth very clear! Thank you very much. If a person who thinks he should keep the Law of Moses does not see the truth from this post, I think than nothing will persuade him.

[Guest]

That is the best analogy I have ever heard. Thank you Homer.

[Guest]

I agree, Homer. Amazing!

TK

[Guest]

Homer,

You once said you were a slow typist. I think that's a gift my friend.

That was a good word. Thanks!