Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

Making "the substance of things hoped for" mean the same as "believe you have received it" makes the rest of the passage in Hebrews 11 not make complete sense.

Also, verse 13 seems to at least mitigate against an extreme WoF interpretation of Hebrews 11, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises".

So, my faith is made up of things hoped for! Amen! I hope for living in the presence of my Heavenly Father for all eternity, I hope for the resurrection of my corruptible body to an incorruptible body, I hope for my victory over sin and the flesh in my daily life, I hope for the healing of my body in this life, and ultimately a perfect one in the next. I know I serve a God that can and will do all these things, though I may die in faith not having received all these promises in my life. These things in my mind are mine. I have essentially believed I have received them. Though that doesn't mean I will receive them all now. Nor, does it mean that I cannot or should not say "if it be your will" when I pray for these things. I still do not see how saying "if it be your will" is any denial of promises that God has made to me.

One thing I think Hebrews 11 makes clear is that Faith is a multifaceted thing, comes from a deep place of trust in God, and allows us to do many different things many different ways. I really think it is impossible to put a pin in it.

Shel

[Guest]

As far a Joyce Meyers goes, if I was to put her into a camp I would say she fits in the WoF camp. Actually I think that would be the camp she would choose if she had to choose sides. She is in close with all those WoF teachers and has some of them on her show and she goes on their shows.

I watch her probably once or twice a week, just to see what she is saying. She says some good things from time to time, but her underlying foundation is still health and wealth theology. She just recently (last week I think) said that we have the power to call things that are not as though they were. This smacks of the little gods doctrine, even if she doesn't overtly teach that. Her followers can fill in the gaps with her WoF buddies.

So because of this, her emphasis on the power of your words to create reality, her buddy buddy relationships with the big wigs of WoF, and the testimony of her lifestyle, I recommend people look elsewhere for good teaching. Though I have no illusions that people will listen to me, I have family members who just love her, and they look at me like a deer in headlights when I say anything like this.

Shel

[Guest]

. I have essentially believed I have received them. Though that doesn't mean I will receive them all now. Nor, does it mean that I cannot or should not say "if it be your will" when I pray for these things. I still do not see how saying "if it be your will" is any denial of promises that God has made to me.


Speaking just for me, i just choose to believe as long as it takes for the deliverance to take. It's God's timetable. Re "if it be your will" i think everything is subject to God's will and i do not feel moved to repeat this back to God. All i can say is that God made 7,000 promises in the OT mostly about providing for his children in one way or another and since the New Covenant is better then the Old , i don't think the validity of His promises have ceased.

[Guest]

I Tivo Joyce Meyer's and watch her often and really like her teachings. Not all WOF teachers are the same and to just label her and lump her with Benny Hinn isn't fair or accurate IMO.

O.K. perhaps it's a bit unfair to lump anyone in with Benny Hinn...
But I go along with what Shel said. She does have a very lavish lifestyle (just one e.g. is an $11,000 French clock in the ministry’s Fenton headquarters - imagine your hard-earned offerings going towards that).
I also have enjoyed some of her teachings in the past and have one of her books, which from memory was excellent. But her closeness to the WoF teachers and their influence on her own teaching should be a red flag, & maybe a need to consider this caution from the Justin Peters website:

Not everything that the Word of Faith teachers teach is wrong. Some of it is right. Therein, however, lies the seduction. It is a craftily packaged counterfeit gospel made to look like the real thing.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does "I Tivo" stand for??
It's probably something embarrasingly simple, but all I've come up with so far:
I Totally into vatching of her...
I Too injoy vatching..
In this I vociferously object...
...I give up.

[Guest]

But I go along with what Shel said. She does have a very lavish lifestyle (just one e.g. is an $11,000 French clock in the ministry’s Fenton headquarters - imagine your hard-earned offerings going towards that).

Suzana, Do you know for sure if her ministry's money was used for the clock or if she bought it herself?
Tivo is a (DVR) Digital Video Recorder like VCRs used to do, you know tape the show and watch it anytime.
I watched the Justin Peters message and it was accurate but i've seen this from Hank Hannegrraff before and i just try to judge everyone individually.

[Guest]

Steve7150-

I think your "throwing the baby out with the bath water" is the key. There are plenty of charismatics (not only charismatics, but that is who come to mind) who are not WOFs but pray more aggressively than a typical evangelical. I know several, and I'm trying to improve myself.

This is nothing new; EM Bounds stressed this and so did Andrew Murray (see With Christ in the School of Prayer).

TK

[Guest]

TK Wrote

What do you all make of the following episode from Mark 11, with special attention to the underlined portions:

Quote:
12 Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. 13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
And His disciples heard it.
****
20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.”
22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God. 23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. 24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

Good question

It seems to me that Jesus was using an illustration to show the great things that can happen when you pray because at the end of the illustration he didn’t say “therefore, start speaking” he said “therefore, when you pray”. I think this may be in the similar fashion that he said “knock and it will be open”. Jesus wasn’t illustrating the power of literally knocking on a door in this analogy nor do I think he’s trying to illustrate the power of words in this one. I think he’s making the point that when you pray to our great God in faith great things can happen.

I can speak from personal experience that how God acts in a particular situation doesn’t seem to depend on the power of any particular word that comes out of your mouth. In fact, on more than one occasion, it was when I confessed to God my weakness of faith that I’ve seen him do some great deeds in my life.

Here’s an example….

Someone is told they’re going to be laid off. They may say things like “This is a tough situation”, “I’m very sad”, “I worry that things may not work out”, “I’m afraid we may end up on the street”. They may then pray to God and say “I’m struggling with worry, I have such little faith, help my unbelief”, “I need to look to you in this situation, help me”

A WOF teacher would say that the power of his words has negated any possible way that this person could be helped. In fact, this person’s words are so powerful that they will likely be living on the street soon.

On the other hand…..

I think that God would see a struggling child of his who’s coming to him with faith the size of a mustard seed and looking for help. God cares for us and we are more valuable than a sparrow. In fact I think God would actually try and send messages (one way or another) to reassure this person’s faith. Therefore my faith is not in the power of my words (or even “faith in my faith” as many WOFers would say) but in a Great God.

The following scripture seems to illustrate that Epaphroditus’ healing was in the hands of God rather than any particular “prayer of faith” or “correctly spoken word”

Php 2:25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need,
Php 2:26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill.
Php 2:27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Paul made no mention of a particular “prayer of faith” (although I’m certain that he prayed for him) or “spoken word” that healed him but rather to “God’s mercy”. In my mind this seems to indicate a resignation to God’s ultimate will in the situation.

Faith can be trusting in God to be faithful to his word and it can also be trusting in the goodness of God in the middle of very difficult circumstances….especially when things don’t happen the way we want them to. In other words, I see both a contentment and acceptance of God’s will as faith just as much as heading off to a mission field with only the clothes on our backs. Both, my mind, reflect a trust in God.

PS…In my mind, even coming to God in prayer is an act of faith. By praying you’re essentially saying to God “I’m looking to you because you’re the creator”. Otherwise, if you had no faith in God why even bother praying.

[Guest]

Let's say a friend of yours comes to you and tells you that he just had some medical tests done that show his liver is not functioning properly. He asks you to pray for him for healing. What would you pray?

I'll bite --

Dear God, thank you for all that you are and all that you give, for every breath that we take and for every pain that causes us to turn towards you. We know you are sovereign over all things and that all things can be used for your glory if we would but turn to you and trust in your provision in all things and at all times. Thank you for the tools that you have given to the physicians today, and the healing both supernatural and natural that are at your disposal. We thank you for the peace that comes from knowing that your ways are perfect ways, even when we don't understand them. Forgive us for our fear and how we cling to this life and the comforts of health. Right now, however, Father, we are afraid -- we are afraid by this news, and pray that you would grant us peace in this affliction, but even more, Father, that your will would be done through this trial. If it was my will alone, Father, I would ask unequivocallly that you heal my friend, and I do ask that if your will can be accomplished that way, that you would indeed do so -- I know that you have the power to do it, and though I do believe this, help me in my unbelief, because a part of me leans more on the doctors at times than you, but you have never failed me and I want for that perfect faith. I do realize, however, Father, that you know what is best for both my friend and your kingdom, and for our part, we pray that if this illness or condition better serves your kingdom or will strengthen our faith or otherwise serve your greater purposes for our lives or your kingdom, that we would have the perseverance and faith to continue in this affliction and to learn what you would have us to learn through it or that we would use it to the perfect service of your greater kingdom purposes. Help us to turn to you and to lean ultimately on your goodness and perfect will even as we submit to these doctors. Guide their hands and use them as your instruments even as you use this situation. We pray this in your perfect and trustworth will for our lives and your kingdom. Amen.

I have personally lived this in a very real way -- in affliction or prosperity, my faith is not in a particular outcome, but in the perfect goodness and far superior vision of our Father. I thank God for the times He has answered my imperfect will in the negative. My will almost always leads me somewhere I would rather not go. God has never failed me, and even hindsight being 20/20 is still inferior to God's perfect and timeless vision.

[Guest]

Anothersteve wrote:

Therefore my faith is not in the power of my words (or even “faith in my faith” as many WOFers would say) but in a Great God.

I understand where you are coming from here, but the problem is that while our words don't have magical powers, they can drastically affect our faith. If all i'm going to do is whine and complain about how bad i got it and i think i'll go eat worms, how can i pray a prayer of faith?

Darin-

Thank you for taking the time to write out that prayer. I appreciate it. I'd still like some other takers, as well. I know it's a little weird.

TK

[Guest]

Thank you for taking the time to write out that prayer. I appreciate it. I'd still like some other takers, as well. I know it's a little weird.

It's not weird at all - what's weird is the thought that I just had as to how I might pray for an ubeliever -- I'm just not sure how I would handle that one.

Another thing that strikes me -- I agree that words have psychological (even if not supernatural) power -- they can reinforce our beliefs and attitudes or help us change our attitudes -- if I try to keep my words positive, somehow I eventuallly can believe them myself and I can even become more positive. If I use negative words, it not only reflects but also affects my own attitude and those around me. Even more important to recite the mantra, so to speak of God's will -- it reminds us of where our heart ought to be. I don't think there's "magic" in the words, and I try not to simply add them as a "tag line" much like an email signature, but I do try to say words like that whenever possible just to remind myself what's important to me and to keep my own attitude in check.