Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

I think it's inauthentic to present an image that doesn’t reflect your true feelings. God knows what we're feeling inside anyway. The scriptures are filled with true emotions. For example, Darin's verbal reminders/encouragements to himself are very similar to the approach that the psalmist used:

Psa 42:5 Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me? Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my salvation



But the key here is that despite his feelings, the psalmist said with his words that he had hope in God and he praised God.
Paul said "We are troubled on every side , YET NOT not distressed , we are perplexed BUT not in despair. Persecuted BUT not forsaken, cast down BUT not destroyed." 2nd Cor 4.8-9.
Despite everything, the psalmist and Paul acknowledged and believed and said they would be delivered.
Of course God knows our heart and knows our thoughts but i think He wants more from us then a passive acknowledgement from us that "He knows."
A relationship requires input from both parties, God and us. That's not to say God won't ever do individual acts of mercy but i think after awhile He expects us to develop our faith. And i think faith can be developed.

[Guest]

I think when the Bible tells us to rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice, it is simply saying that despite our circumstances, our words are to be words of praise and hope. In other words, even though we feel lousy and downtrodden, and even though we know that the Lord knows that is how we feel inside, our words and actions should not be consistent with how we feel, but rather with what the Word tells us our behavior should be. Paul and Silas, by pagan standards, had every right to cry and complain and whine about being beaten and thrown in the stocks. That was their right, after all. But God says that is NOT their right. They were obedient, and as a result the jailer and presumably many of their fellow prisoners were saved.

TK

[Guest]

I think when the Bible tells us to rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice, it is simply saying that despite our circumstances, our words are to be words of praise and hope. In other words, even though we feel lousy and downtrodden, and even though we know that the Lord knows that is how we feel inside, our words and actions should not be consistent with how we feel, but rather with what the Word tells us our behavior should be. Paul and Silas, by pagan standards, had every right to cry and complain and whine about being beaten and thrown in the stocks. That was their right, after all. But God says that is NOT their right. They were obedient, and as a result the jailer and presumably many of their fellow prisoners were saved.

TK

TK,
That was beautifully said! It seems to me, however, that Word of Faith teaching would lead you to believe that Paul and Silas must have made a "negative confession" and have been lacking in faith to have ended up in such dire straits in the first place. That's the problem.

[Guest]

Good point, Michelle. They MIGHT say that, but they would a very hard time getting around what Jesus and others (like Paul) saying that christians WILL be persecuted, and that they are blessed when it happens, and to rejoice!

I have never heard a WOF preacher say (but i rarely listen to them) that the martyrs of the early church, or present day for that matter, could have fared differently if they just had more faith. Some may teach this, but I have not heard this. it would be highly presumptous, if they did teach this.

TK

[Guest]

I don't think I have ever heard one of those teachers say that about martyrs, though it is the logical outcome of such a belief, and they have no reservations about saying it about Job.

Shel

[Guest]

I did a quick google of the Job issue, and found this response. I kind of like it:

Does God ever cause sickness? What about verses in the Old Testament?

The Old Testament is filled with questions that the cross has answered. Who did Jesus not heal when they came to Him for healing? When did He ever say that the Father had given them a sickness so they would become more holy or humble? Never. A question cannot cancel a revelation, which means that any question I may have has no power to cancel what God has shown me. Jesus is the perfect revelation of the Father. As such, Jesus Christ is perfect theology.

People ask, “What about Job?” I tell them, “I’m not a disciple of Job; I’m a disciple of Jesus.” Job was the question; Jesus is the answer. If I read Job and it doesn't lead me to Jesus, then I never understood the question. All the law and the prophets were to create an awareness of need. That awareness prepared Israel for a savior. To return to the standards of the law and the prophets at the expense of ignoring the perfect revelation of the Father given to us in the person of Jesus Christ is to fall to the ultimate expression of arrogance. It puts us back in the place of control where we do what is humanly possible—and call it ministry.

The life that Jesus led was not an aberration or a temporary statement of God's solution for humanity. He started something that we are to complete. Jesus said, "As the Father sent Me, I send you” (John 20:21). It's not complicated; it's just expensive. It costs us everything.

It is now up to us to follow His example without excuses, rejecting all distractions. This is our destiny.

from: http://www.bjm.org

I realize that there could be quite a lot to talk about in this statement, but it is indeed thought-provoking.

TK

[Guest]

Paul, probably could have avoided a lot of hassles if he had only used Positive Confession!

I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.

- 2 Cor 11:23-30

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

- 2 Cor 12:7-10

[Guest]

Paul's ability to use Positive Confession definitely seemed to be lacking. After all, Paul left his friend Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Tim. 4:20) and his friend Epaphroditus got sick and nearly died (Phil. 2:19-30).

[Guest]

Hi Mort-

what would you have us glean from the fact that a couple of Paul's friends got sick? I suspect I know where you are heading, but I am not entirely certain.

TK

[Guest]

Paul's ability to use Positive Confession definitely seemed to be lacking. After all, Paul left his friend Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Tim. 4:20) and his friend Epaphroditus got sick and nearly died (Phil. 2:19-30).



OK and Peter denied the Lord three times, are these guys perfected people? Paul had a fight with Barnabus and probably was wrong about Mark, Paul returned to Jerusalem when he probably should'nt have. Moses killed someone, David committed terrible sins etc etc.