Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

TK Wrote

I understand where you are coming from here, but the problem is that while our words don't have magical powers, they can drastically affect our faith. If all i'm going to do is whine and complain about how bad i got it and i think i'll go eat worms, how can i pray a prayer of faith?

Hi TK, my intent was not to present the image of someone whining nor eating worms. My intent was to present someone who is making an honest confession of an inner struggle. One of the concerns I have with WOF is they put such an emphasis on the power of words that you are not free to make honest confessions and be real.

TK Wrote

I have never heard a WOF preacher say (but i rarely listen to them) that the martyrs of the early church, or present day for that matter, could have fared differently if they just had more faith. Some may teach this, but I have not heard this. it would be highly presumptous, if they did teach this.

I've never heard a good explanation to this questions TK. I did hear Kenneth Hagin try and address this over 20 years ago so my memory may be a bit foggy. I think he said something like "Well, you know, anytime you're trying to start a new work, like the Christian church, you may face something like persecution". I found his answer unsatisfying. For the most part I find that this issue is not addressed, likely because it goes directly against the philosophy of their teaching.

[Guest]

Steve7150 wrote

Paul's ability to use Positive Confession definitely seemed to be lacking. After all, Paul left his friend Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Tim. 4:20) and his friend Epaphroditus got sick and nearly died (Phil. 2:19-30).



OK and Peter denied the Lord three times, are these guys perfected people? Paul had a fight with Barnabus and probably was wrong about Mark, Paul returned to Jerusalem when he probably should'nt have. Moses killed someone, David committed terrible sins etc etc.

I understand that Paul was human, but are you saying that Paul was so unaware of the power of positive confession that he failed to make one in these situations? I can understand someone wavering in their faith but he didn't even express the concept positive confession(as the WOF's teach it).

[Guest]

what would you have us glean from the fact that a couple of Paul's friends got sick? I suspect I know where you are heading, but I am not entirely certain.

I'm being a bit facetious, but the point should be clear. According to hardcore WoF teachers (Hagin, Copeland, et al), if we have enough faith and make Positive Confessions we never have to be sick or broke. If this teaching is true, then Paul seems to have either been unaware of it or lacked the faith needed to benefit from it.

Or perhaps it is the WoF teachings that are fraught with errors.

[Guest]

Danny Wrote

According to hardcore WoF teachers (Hagin, Copeland, et al), if we have enough faith and make Positive Confessions we never have to be sick or broke. If this teaching is true, then Paul seems to have either been unaware of it or lacked the faith needed to benefit from it.

I agree Danny, and this would also call into question their teaching that healing is guaranteed because, as they say, it's in the attonement.

[Guest]

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.



Anothersteve, First of all i'd like to compliment you on your name, it's fabulous.
Actually this sounds like a "faith-filled confession" by Paul because he shows he has overcome his hardships through Christ already even though his circumstances were challenging to say the least.
The phrase "positive confession" sounds silly and is presented by critics as if just saying the words alone makes a difference which of course it does'nt. But i believe our degree of faith behind the words does make a difference , all other things being equal.

[Guest]

anothersteve wrote:

I agree Danny, and this would also call into question their teaching that healing is guaranteed because, as they say, it's in the attonement.

I also agree that "positive confession" does not guarantee anything. Positive confession, i believe is what is touted by new age books that are very popular now like "The Secret."

As far as physical healing in relation to the atonement goes, i used to be dead set against the idea. But like I said in an earlier post, once I learned that AW Tozer did not discount the idea (very probably) as well as many other respectable, non- word of faith teachers (like Chuck Smith, e.g.) I no longer discount the idea out of hand.

To say that physical healing is PROVIDED for in the atonement is far different than saying it is GUARANTEED by the atonement, just as salvation is not guaranteed for everyone (unless UR is the correct view). Physical healing is still a mercy of God. The question that people argue over is whether it is God's will for people to be well (even though they sometimes arent) just as it is his will for people to be saved (even though they sometimes aren't).

Here is a possible progression:

1) Jesus healed everybody that came to him for healing.
2) Jesus said "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." (John 5:19)
3) Jesus is the exact representation of His [God's] being (Heb 1:3)

therefore,

When jesus healed everybody it must have been God's will. AND THEN:

Jesus said: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. (John 14:12)

and: "As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” (Jn. 20:21)

Therefore, an argument could be made that it is God's will for people to be healed today, just as it was when Jesus was working, and WE are to carry out this ministry.

TK

[Guest]

Hi TK,

A couple of thoughts...

Mark 6:1-6 shows a case where few are healed due to their lack of faith (which I equate with not receiving Him as messiah).

Although the Apostles performed healings, it also appears that at times they were unable to heal (as in the examples of Paul with Trophimus and Epaphroditus).

The healings and other miracles performed by Jesus and the Apostles were part and parcel to the mission of establishing that He was the expected Messiah ("If you don't believe me, believe the miracles I do...").

I very much believe that Jesus still heals people today. However, I don't believe that we can cause it to occur by our Positive Confession or by working up our own faith or by any other formula. I think that we can simply ask Him to heal the person and (since this is what Jesus did) speak to the condition and tell it to be healed. This doesn't require any shouting and waving arms around and knocking people over with slaps to the forehead. Whether or not the person is healed is entirely up to God.

I once asked a Vineyard pastor, "What happens if I pray for someone and they're not healed?" His response was, "Then at least that person was loved enough by you to try."

[Guest]

Mort wrote:

However, I don't believe that we can cause it to occur by our Positive Confession or by working up our own faith or by any other formula. I think that we can simply ask Him to heal the person and (since this is what Jesus did) speak to the condition and tell it to be healed.

I agree with this 100%. This is what I have been trying to say, boiled down to essentials. The portion I underlined is what I believe a great majority of evangelical christians have missed, and that I am just starting to get my mind around.

The statement by the Vineyard pastor is so true. I heard a similar statement- "the more people I pray for, the more I see healed."

TK

[Guest]

As far as physical healing in relation to the atonement goes, i used to be dead set against the idea. But like I said in an earlier post, once I learned that AW Tozer did not discount the idea (very probably) as well as many other respectable, non- word of faith teachers (like Chuck Smith, e.g.) I no longer discount the idea out of hand.

To say that physical healing is PROVIDED for in the atonement is far different than saying it is GUARANTEED by the atonement, just as salvation is not guaranteed for everyone (unless UR is the correct view). Physical healing is still a mercy of God. The question that people argue over is whether it is God's will for people to be well (even though they sometimes arent) just as it is his will for people to be saved (even though they sometimes aren't).

Hi TK, it is quite possible that Tozer held the belief that healing is provided in the atonement. AB Simpson, who founded the denomination he was apart of, held that belief for sure.

I also believe that God healed people before Christ came (before Christ's atonement) and in our day as well. I believe Christ died on the cross to atone for our sin. There are a few scriptures that, I think, are taken out of context in order to make the Healing in Atonement assertion (that Christ also secured our physical healing as well). Steve Gregg has a couple of lectures that address this subject and I think he did a pretty good job. The nice thing about his lectures is that he understands where the WOF teachers are coming from since he's quite familiar with their teaching. I find that many people who are against the WOF have a nasty tone and are often misrepresenting the WOFers position.

If healing was provided in the same way as forgiveness of sins, here's something to ask.....

If I'm presently sick or maimed and apparently don't seem to have enough faith to secure my healing then what makes me certain that I have enough faith to secure forgiveness from my sins if it's provided in the same atonement?

May I also note, that as a result of our sins being forgiven and Christ's resurrection we will ultimately be healed (new bodies) as a result of the atonement. So in a sense you could say it IS provided in the atonement, but that's certainly a different understanding than the WOF

[Guest]

If I'm presently sick or maimed and apparently don't seem to have enough faith to secure my healing then what makes me certain that I have enough faith to secure forgiveness from my sins if it's provided in the same atonement?



I've heard Steve's lectures on this and like everything he does, it is very good. However it may be that something like healing may take a different kind of faith and obedience beyond believing He died for our sins.