I Taught the 3 Views

[Guest]

Well, tonight was the final installment in our 3 week series on the 3 views of hell. It's part of a larger 8-week series that looks like this

1. Were We Made for Something More?
2. What Happens the Moment we Die?
3. Hell: Eternal Torment?
4. Hell: Universal Reconciliation?
5. Hell: Conditional Mortality?
6. Heaven: The Resurrection
7. Heaven: Redeeming Heaven from our in-Imagination)
8. Heaven: Common Questions: Dreaming the Details

In week 3, we talked about the biblical usage of the term 'hell' (as well as translation issues) and then the remaining verses used to defend eternal torment. In week 4 we talked about the UR view using the top 10 or 11 verses used to support that view. This week we looked at the argument for CI using the top 16 verses used to defend that view.

I just thought I'd share the overall feedback from a group of 30+ long-term evangelicals. After week 3, quite a few of them were surprised by how little evidence there is for eternal torment, but were still convinced it was true. The UR view was not very persuasive. I don't think any of them were persuaded toward that view much at all. They felt the verses utilized by that camp were best understood in different ways, only struggling to understand 2 or 3 passages. Tonight was a different story, I'd say the general response to the CI view was very positive. They were very impressed with the biblical case for this view. There was 1 lady who was offended by the thought that torment might not last forever and referenced the everlasting fire passages, but we followed the reference to Isaiah which pretty much gave more support to the CI view.

Overall, I think the majority of the group now feels undecided on the issue and free to remain so. I consider this a positive development.

Personally, my study over the past 3 weeks has taken me from mostly undecided to fairly convinced in the CI view. I am amazed, to be honest, at the lack of convincing Scripture references for the ET view.

[Guest]

This issue of Christianity Today has an article of general interest for those interested in the afterlife -- Heaven Is Not Our Home. It's pretty basic, but good perspective for those who see the afterlife in a traditional (and what he sees as largely gnostic) way.

It's also online for those who don't subscribe...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... 13.36.html

[Guest]

That's awesome Matt. Your students are very fortunate to have a teacher who is willing to fairly present all of the views, rather than just doggedly promoting the view he subscribes to.

[Guest]

Personally, my study over the past 3 weeks has taken me from mostly undecided to fairly convinced in the CI view.

Uh... didn't you have a pretty strong leaning toward the CI view before you did the study?

[Guest]

Personally, my study over the past 3 weeks has taken me from mostly undecided to fairly convinced in the CI view.

Uh... didn't you have a pretty strong leaning toward the CI view before you did the study?

A 'pretty strong leaning' is a fairly flexible term I suppose

In 2005 I was a strong defender of the eternal torment view
To be honest, I simply didn't know much about the other views
In 2006, as I posted on my blog that I was now aware of the 3 views
But I also posted that I was still undecided

In 2007 I didn't spend much time at all on this issue, so my position was still on hold.

This year I've been slowly and gradually preparing for this series, and so the more I encountered the relevant texts, the more I leaned toward the CI view, that is true. Even back in 2006 I thought the view made a good initial case, I just hadn't had time to really delve into it.

A month or so ago I would have said I am undecided and open
Today I would say I am decided but open to correction

[Guest]

Matt,

Just curious. Do you believe that those who are to be annihilated are first resurrected, judged, punished and then destroyed?...or do you think that perhaps they are simply judged unworthy of resurrection?...or something else?

Todd

[Guest]

Hey

First, I should say that I don't really prefer the term 'annihilated.' To me, if someone is, by nature, immortal and then God puts an end to their immortality, that would be 'annihilation.' But I don't believe man is immortal by nature. I believe immortality is derived from the eternal God, hence 'conditional immortality.'

As for the details you asked about, I would say I am still open to a more concrete position on such things, but my current understanding is as follows: I believe that when a wicked person dies, they are in an unconscious state until the general resurrection. At that point, the wicked begin to experience the torment of judgment. I don't know how long this would last. I don't think it will last very long (though it may be different lengths of time for different people depending on their levels of wickedness). The fire will eventually consume them and they will perish.

[Guest]

Hi Matt,

I just wondered how the following statement fits into your understanding:

Revelation 20:10 ... and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented [perhaps "tested"] day and night for ever and ever [literally "into the ages of ages"].

The beast and the false prophet, as they are described, seem to be people. It seems that these two persons will be in the lake of fire, if not forever, for a very long time. This may fit into your understanding that the very wicked will spend more time in the lake of fire. However, this seems to be an unusually long time.

Have you any scriptural evidence that indicates that some people will suffer only a short time in the lake of fire before undergoing the second death? Or is the lake of fire the second death? --- as Rev 20:14 and Rev 21:8 seem to affirm.

[Guest]

Hey

I just wondered how the following statement fits into your understanding:

Revelation 20:10 ... and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented [perhaps "tested"] day and night for ever and ever [literally "into the ages of ages"].

The beast and the false prophet, as they are described, seem to be people. It seems that these two persons will be in the lake of fire, if not forever, for a very long time. This may fit into your understanding that the very wicked will spend more time in the lake of fire. However, this seems to be an unusually long time.

I do think that, similar to Revelation 14:10-11, are among the stronger verses against conditional immortality, but I do have some reasons for not thinking it a 'very' strong adversary to this view. First, though the beast and false prophet are here personified, I don't think they are actual person. I am more inclined to think they are kingdoms and or ideas that will be dealt with once and for all at said time. Second, Revelation is, of course, a highly symbolic book and I am not inclined to build doctrines of the fate of the wicked from it without strong supporting passages throughout the rest of the Bible. Third, Steve has mentioned that the reference to 'day and night' is telling since other places describe this time period as lacking day and night and/or being complete and utter darkness. This lends to the idea that this is highly symbolic. Fourth, as you mentioned, even if we discount all these things, it is possible that these 3, being the most wicked in creation, suffer for ages and ages, much longer than any other.

Have you any scriptural evidence that indicates that some people will suffer only a short time in the lake of fire before undergoing the second death? Or is the lake of fire the second death? --- as Rev 20:14 and Rev 21:8 seem to affirm.

My thought process in these regards revolves around a few positions I believe are very defensible. First, I am not convinced that the wicked retain consciousness upon death and so I don't see much support for 'current' torment (not to mention that current torment would make equal distribution of torment tricky). Second, I do believe punishment/torment is a biblical principle, so if it isn't current, it would seemingly need to be post Judgment Day. Third, the Bible seems to teach that there will indeed be degrees of reward in heaven and degrees of punishment in hell. I suppose it is quite possible that varrying degrees could all be accomplished in a literal day (Judgment Day). I am content to leave that matter to God (as if I had a choice!). I am unable to really fathom differing degrees of punishment that have no 'time' aspect involved, especially if the same instrument (fire) is used on all.

I think the Lake of Fire is the means to the 2nd Death, just like if I were to preach this Sunday about the Bible and hold the Bible before the congregation and say "This IS my hope," I certainly wouldn't be saying that the Bible saves, but that the Bible is a tool in which I can discover salvation. It is a means toward that end.

[TK]

hey matt (hope you see this)--

do you have a full outline of this class you taught, including scriptures, etc?

if so, would you be willing to post it here? i would really like to teach something like this at my church and since you have already done some of the work...

thx,

TK