What does Jesus mean?

Post by **__id_2533** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:02 am

Homer, I was interupted the last time I was responding to your post, and plan to continue with some of your other objections, when I have time....but in the meantime:

Sean, 1 John 5:3 is recorded in my English translation as "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."

Is that what you have?

One who follows the Spirit keeps the Law (commandments) of God.

Hope this helps you....Peace, dmatic

Post by **__id_2533** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:03 am

Sam asked:

I know,... what parts of Leviticus do you think I need to "live by"? Maybe that will narrow it down enough.

All of it that pertains to you as a man.

Peace, dmatic

Post by **_samcllr** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 pm

dmatic wrote:
All of it that pertains to you as a man.

That eliminates a lot of the commands in the book. Isn't that what everyone else is saying here or am I misunderstanding you?

"As a man", I can see that a lot of the commands are specific to Israel which liberates me from having to obey them. Then, another large portion pertains to uncleanness and atonement which we know Jesus made atonement "once and for all" and he also said that it is what is in a man's heart that makes him unclean and he also declared all foods clean in Mark chapter 7 and then later Peter stated that he "...should not call any man unholy or unclean" based on a vision which was relative to commands from Leviticus 11, so according to the new testament revelation, those are not binding on me.

Now the rest is actually practical but what I would like to straighten out here is that I can logically -based on what is revealed in the new testament- discern which commandments are timeless and unconditional and "...pertain to [me] as a man" and which ones do not, and by doing so I am basically choosing which ones to obey, something you seem to be saying is improper.

If you can say "all of it that pertains to [me] as a man" are you not annulling "...one of the least of the commandments" and if not, how are you free to disregard some commandments without violating your own belief? Paul did say that the Law will only benefit you if you keep the whole law. What if you can't?

I still don't see how you can disregard Jesus' clarification of what "His" commandment is in John 15:12 and John's reiteration of it in I John 3:23 and then say that it is really the old testament commandments that is being referred to. Especially when Jesus said, "...this is the Law and the Prophets". Can you explain that for me? This is a very curious position you are taking. It seems that it is always held by easily offended people and I have only seen "agree to disagree" as the outcome of the conversations. Your position is also always the least of all explained.

I don't think your being ridiculous or that you don't know what you are talking about, I just can never understand how I'm reading something different than you. It seems to me that those who understand it the way you do need to be told by someone to understand it that way or else they would never have understood it that way at all.

I don't know, maybe I am wrong but it remains to be seen and you seem to be dodging more than you're explaining seeing how you only answered a small portion of my post.

Explain how you can "annul one of the least of these commandments" through some unknown factor but I can't be liberated from any of them through the Spirit. That would explain a lot.

Peace Brother,
Sam

Post by **__id_2533** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:57 pm

samcllr wrote:
dmatic wrote:
All of it that pertains to you as a man.

That eliminates a lot of the commands in the book. Isn't that what everyone else is saying here or am I misunderstanding you?

"As a man", I can see that a lot of the commands are specific to Israel which liberates me from having to obey them. Then, another large portion pertains to uncleanness and atonement which we know Jesus made atonement "once and for all" and he also said that it is what is in a man's heart that makes him unclean and he also declared all foods clean in Mark chapter 7 and then later Peter stated that he "...should not call any man unholy or unclean" based on a vision which was relative to commands from Leviticus 11, so according to the new testament revelation, those are not binding on me.

Of course, Sam, If you are not of the New Covenant that God is making with the houses of Israel, and Judah, then, I suppose, that you are still "free" to do what you want, without regard for what He instructs His people.

You don't "have to" obey any of God's commands, but I thought you were claiming Y'Shua as your King and redeemer. Those who do so want Him to be theirs, obey His instructions, and seek to please Him! If you do not have those desires, then, go ahead.....you don't "have to" obey anybody....just continue to follow your own lusts...but I still think it unwise.

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the passage in Mark 7. The parenthetical statement added by some "uninspired interpreter" was not spoken by Y'Shua. He did say that what makes a man unclean is what comes out from within his own heart, but to eat with unwashed hands, according to the tradition of men, being preached by the Pharisees, would not make a man unclean.

Peter's vision was concerning people. How would you, if you were God, attempt to teach to Peter that He was inviting all people to accept His Law written in their hearts, and to accept His Son as their King?

God bless,
dmatic

Post by **__id_2533** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:02 pm

Sam also wrote:

If you can say "all of it that pertains to [me] as a man" are you not annulling "...one of the least of the commandments" and if not, how are you free to disregard some commandments without violating your own belief? Paul did say that the Law will only benefit you if you keep the whole law. What if you can't?

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your question. what I am saying is that you are free to keep all the commandments that are for you to keep. You cannot, for example, keep the commands that are meant for menstrating women. Unless you are married. I advise women to keep the commands as well. Those addressed to Levites, in particular, are instructional, but maybe you are not of that calling. We all can keep God's commandments with His help, because all things are possible for God. Keeping all of God's law is perfect liberty, and very beneficial!

God bless,
dmatic

Post by **__id_2533** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:11 pm

Sam, you continued to write:

I still don't see how you can disregard Jesus' clarification of what "His" commandment is in John 15:12 and John's reiteration of it in I John 3:23 and then say that it is really the old testament commandments that is being referred to. Especially when Jesus said, "...this is the Law and the Prophets". Can you explain that for me? This is a very curious position you are taking. It seems that it is always held by easily offended people and I have only seen "agree to disagree" as the outcome of the conversations. Your position is also always the least of all explained.

I don't think your being ridiculous or that you don't know what you are talking about, I just can never understand how I'm reading something different than you. It seems to me that those who understand it the way you do need to be told by someone to understand it that way or else they would never have understood it that way at all.

I don't know, maybe I am wrong but it remains to be seen and you seem to be dodging more than you're explaining seeing how you only answered a small portion of my post.

Explain how you can "annul one of the least of these commandments" through some unknown factor but I can't be liberated from any of them through the Spirit. That would explain a lot.

Once again, I'm not sure what commandment you think I'm annulling. Nor do I understand why you think I disagree with John 15:12 or 1 John 3:23. My Bible is in the car, and I only have a few more minutes here, but if you are referring to Jesus' statement about The two greatest commandments, given by God, through Moses...to Love God with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves....to Love one another....I'm not sure why you think it strange.

Many people seem to think that those commands are "New" ones that Jesus taught, but are not contained in the "Old Testament". Many are surprised to find that Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses when he instucted his disciples to love one another.

gotta go.....hopefully, I've answered most of your questions. I wasn't aware that I hadn't answered your previous ones. I'll try to go back and check when I can find some time.

Peace, dmatic

Post by **_samcllr** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:44 pm

dmatic wrote:
Once again, I'm not sure what commandment you think I'm annulling. Nor do I understand why you think I disagree with John 15:12 or 1 John 3:23. My Bible is in the car, and I only have a few more minutes here, but if you are referring to Jesus' statement about The two greatest commandments, given by God, through Moses...to Love God with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves....to Love one another....I'm not sure why you think it strange.

Many people seem to think that those commands are "New" ones that Jesus taught, but are not contained in the "Old Testament". Many are surprised to find that Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses when he instucted his disciples to love one another.

I wasn't surprised at all that those commands were found in the Law of Moses nor did I think they were new. God has always asked for that level of faith, something you seem to be stumbling over. However, the New command that is indeed new, is found in the scriptures I referenced. You might want to start keeping the Bible with you because guessing is not one of your strengths. Here, I'll post them since you like to do this unarmed.

John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

That is new and found nowhere in the Law of Moses.

I John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

I wrote: I still don't see how you can disregard Jesus' clarification of what "His" commandment is in John 15:12 and John's reiteration of it in I John 3:23 and then say that it is really the old testament commandments that is being referred to. Especially when Jesus said, "...this is the Law and the Prophets".

By "disregard" I mean that you continue to make blind assertions that Jesus and John are referring to the Old Testament Law when they say "keep my/his commandment" when "His commandment" is stated in the same passages. Of course that can be simply explained away through your Apostolic authority by which you are able to tell what is and is not truly inspired scripture. Coincidentally only the scriptures you disagree with are not truly inspired... nice.

Well as long as we're making up stuff let me ask one more question and then I'm going to have to quit. I'd like to see you dance around this statement by Jesus:

Matthew 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Your favorite scripture says, "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

John the Baptist was the greatest born among women and certainly did not annul anyone of the commandments or teach anyone to do so. Why was he lesser than the "least" in the Kingdom of God?

Make up whatever you want. I'm bored.

I've already read your conversation with Steve Gregg on another post recently and I have no desire to go through the same old... whatever.

Anyways, if you're truly Apostolic and a comprehensive reader then you'll be able to locate the one and only question in this post and answer it without any extra comments that you seem to find helpful. I think it makes you seem less focused. I bet you can't answer the question without paragraphs of the same old false doctrine. I'm almost betting you don't even answer the question.

Sorry for the tone buddy, but when the Bible is against you it's time to start reconsidering your position.

done,
Sam

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat May 03, 2008 12:08 pm

samcllr you wrote: John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

That is new and found nowhere in the Law of Moses.

Right you are, Sam. Indeed our Lord himself called it a new commandment:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Post by **__id_2533** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:07 pm

Sorry sam, but I'm glad you're done.

As for your gambling....I hope you didn't bet your house or your bed.

Your answer may have something to do with the possibility that John was not (yet) in the kingdom of heaven. Apparently, he had born of a woman, but had not yet been "born again". Good question though!

Peace, dmatic