Calvin's position on Adam's will, was Adam programmed to sin

[Guest]

Troy seems to be a decent enough guy, he no doubt has listened to teachers who haven’t taken the time, nor had the inclination to really investigate the position they are opposing.

Paul, have we met? Just for your information, I currently attend a Reformed Baptist church (though I am not a member) and as I told you, I have a good friend who is a student of Bruce Ware, (and Tom Schriener). Both respected gentlemen have written books that advance and defend Calvinism i.e. God's Lesser Glory, God's Greater Glory [Bruce Ware] and Still Sovereign [Tom Schriener & Bruce Ware]. Furthermore, a large portion of this church are students of the Seminary that these two gentlemen teach at (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary). I am only telling you for whatever it may be worth to you. It could still be said that this doesn't in and of itself guarantee that I understand Calvinism correctly, and I will admit that I do not have and exhaustive understanding. Then again, most of those who embrace it don't either (in reference to the later statement). I know this to be for sure, because most of my understanding of Calvinism comes from those who embrace it. This leads me to believe that it is either you or them that have listened to teachers who haven’t taken the time, or had the inclination to really investigate the position they are embracing. Therefore, you are mistaken, for the most part in your key assumption about me, though it could be true to a small degree. However, it is not true to the extent of dismissing my posts as having no merit or worth. This would be a clever way to brush off my points, but it could not be said to be a logical way. I hope you realize that I only presented the quotes to compare with Calvin's thoughts on Adam and asked: OK, what do you make of the following quotes then?

Instead of giving your honest opinion and answering my question as to what you make of those quotes, you responded with:

Your point? I don't see any quotes that state Calvin's position was that "God makes man wicked".

You assumed I was trying to make a point and redirected the flow of the discussion. However, all I really wanted was to know what you thought of the quotes; I was not trying to say that God makes men wicked, and as far as I can recall, I have neither claimed in any of my posts that Calvinism teaches this nor have I denied it.

I believe that you are a very intelligent person Paul, and I think Steve does too. That's why he expects more of you than what you have, so far, offered.

[Guest]

Calvin, and all Calvinists since him have been endlessly contradicting themselves. It cannot be helped. No matter how BLATANT their contradictions are, they would say there are none.

It reminds me of the little jingle:

The Barefoot boy
With his boots on
Stood
Sitting there.

If the above was a Calvinist jingle, they would argue endlessly that there was NO contradiction, that "consistent exegesis" would show this, and that Arminians simply don't understand the jingle.

That Calvinism is one of the most absurdly unBiblical doctrines to me is evident. The position is indefensible.

[Guest]

The Barefoot boy
With his boots on
Stood
Sitting there.

Can I interject briefly with a slight diversion?
I am not a Calvinist, but I can't help myself, I just have to have a go at the jingle, I haven't heard it before.

The Barefoot boy - capital B would tell me that may be a nickname, because he was usually barefoot.
With his boots on - a recent acquisition?
Stood - he was only sitting on the outside
Sitting there- only under pain of excommunication? He was STANDING on the inside.

So, obviously no contradiction.
I just can't decide if that was exegesis or eisegesis. 8)

[Guest]

The Barefoot boy
With his boots on
Stood
Sitting there.

Can I interject briefly with a slight diversion?
I am not a Calvinist, but I can't help myself, I just have to have a go at the jingle, I haven't heard it before.

The Barefoot boy - capital B would tell me that may be a nickname, because he was usually barefoot.
With his boots on - a recent acquisition?
Stood - he was only standing on the outside
Sitting there- only under pain of excommunication? He was STANDING on the inside.

So, obviously no contradiction.
I just can't decide if that was exegesis or eisegesis. 8)

Is just one of those "mysteries" we have to accept Suzanna...Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Guest]

Oh Suzanna! Brilliant "exegesis". I repent of the error of my ways!

[Guest]

BOOK I. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE CREATOR. CHAPTER 18. GOD SO USES THE WORKS OF THE UNGODLY, AND SO BENDS THEIR MINDS TO CARRY OUT HIS JUDGMENTS, THAT HE REMAINS PURE FROM EVERY STAIN.

...That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture. What we formerly quoted from the Psalms, to the effect that he does whatever pleases him (Ps. 115:3), certainly extends to all the actions of men.

...If the blinding and infatuation of Ahab is a judgement from God, the fiction of bare permission is at an end; for it would be ridiculous for a judge only to permit, and not also to decree, what he wishes to be done at the very time that he commits the execution of it to his ministers.

...it is perfectly clear that it is the merest trifling to substitute a bare permission for the providence of God, as if he sat in a watch-tower waiting for fortuitous events, his judgements meanwhile depending on the will of man.

...The sum of the whole is this, - since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence; so that he not only exerts his power in the elect, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, but also forces the reprobate to do him service.

[Guest]

While we're talking about Adam's sin, why did the entrance to the tree of life have to be guarded? Would Adam in his post-fall fallen state have desired to have eternal life? If so, was he in some way "less" affected by his own sin than our imputed effect?

By the way, what happened to..
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?p=30655

[Guest]

Troy, great link & quotes!

(Wow, Calvin himself proved his own stuff was made up).

What nonsense!!!

..That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.

"Clear passages"???
As in: Where are ANY that say this?
These ideas were in Calvin's mind---not in the Bible!!!

[Guest]

John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion

...That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.

Still, however, the will of God is not at variance with itself. It undergoes no change. He makes no pretence of not willing what he wills, but while in himself the will is one and undivided, to us it appears manifold, because, from the feebleness of our intellect, we cannot comprehend how, though after a different manner, he wills and wills not the very same thing...

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear the Word of Jehovah, O kings of Judah, and people of Jerusalem. So says Jehovah of Hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I will bring evil on this place, which shall cause the ears of him who hears it to tingle.
Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken Me, and have made this place famous and have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents.
Jer 19:5 They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I never commanded nor spoke, nor did it come into My mind.


My feeble intellect certainly can't comprehend how God could have so secretly decreed something that it was even excluded from His own mind.

Perhaps John Calvin was on the wrong track?

I think I would prefer to believe what Jeremiah wrote, and derive my view of God according to the whole counsel of Scripture.

[Guest]

Good post and good point Suzana!