Not much time now Sean, save for this short comment. You'll notice that the rumor was a false one! This means that the rumor that Paul was not teaching adherence to the Law of Moses was untrue! He was not teaching these things that he was being accused of teaching!
Peace, dmatic
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Hey dmatic, thanks for replying.
Act 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
In other words: Do this and that so that those who see you do so will believe the rumors are not true. Paul did not state outright that the rumors were not true. James wanted Paul to put on a show to make it look like the rumors are untrue.
Anyway, arguing over Jews keeping the law of Moses was not why I brought this text up. I brought it up because of what James says about the Gentiles, if they were to keep the law of Moses or not:
Act 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
James admits that the Gentiles are not commanded to keep the law of Moses. Also note what is stated here:
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
The concern of James is that Paul is teaching Jews who are among Gentiles not to keep the law of moses or circumcise children. James is not concerned whether Gentiles are being told this, as he states in verse 25.
Talk to ya later.
It doesn't specifically say that. James wanted Paul to perform an act to make it look as if Paul did keep the law:dmatic wrote:Not much time now Sean, save for this short comment. You'll notice that the rumor was a false one! This means that the rumor that Paul was not teaching adherence to the Law of Moses was untrue! He was not teaching these things that he was being accused of teaching!
Peace, dmatic
Act 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
In other words: Do this and that so that those who see you do so will believe the rumors are not true. Paul did not state outright that the rumors were not true. James wanted Paul to put on a show to make it look like the rumors are untrue.
Anyway, arguing over Jews keeping the law of Moses was not why I brought this text up. I brought it up because of what James says about the Gentiles, if they were to keep the law of Moses or not:
Act 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
James admits that the Gentiles are not commanded to keep the law of Moses. Also note what is stated here:
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
The concern of James is that Paul is teaching Jews who are among Gentiles not to keep the law of moses or circumcise children. James is not concerned whether Gentiles are being told this, as he states in verse 25.
Talk to ya later.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Sean, you wrote:
If so, what would be different from that kind of deception than those from the deceivng spirits who were teaching all sorts of false ideas, that Paul was warned about by the Holy Spirit??
then you wrote:
Peace, dmatic
Are you suggesting that James was asking Paul to be deceiving?It doesn't specifically say that. James wanted Paul to perform an act to make it look as if Paul did keep the law:
If so, what would be different from that kind of deception than those from the deceivng spirits who were teaching all sorts of false ideas, that Paul was warned about by the Holy Spirit??
then you wrote:
I suppose that the "no such thing" comment could be referring to not keeping the laws of Moses. In other words, they were not teaching Gentiles not to keep the Laws of Moses. For eveidence James cites the four laws form Moses that they instructed the Gentiles to start with!But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
James admits that the Gentiles are not commanded to keep the law of Moses.
Peace, dmatic
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I'm saying he was being "all things to all men". (1 Cor 9:22)dmatic wrote:Are you suggesting that James was asking Paul to be deceiving?
All right then, since I keep those four laws then you would agree that I keep the whole law! I keep all the laws commanded by the Apostles!dmatic wrote: I suppose that the "no such thing" comment could be referring to not keeping the laws of Moses. In other words, they were not teaching Gentiles not to keep the Laws of Moses. For eveidence James cites the four laws form Moses that they instructed the Gentiles to start with!
Peace, dmatic
Act 15:23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—
Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
So let's see, you come along and try to place a greater burden on us, but we know better because we have the apostles own words to keep us from believing false teachers.
Please consider the words of the apostles!
Peace in Him,
Sean
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
So, Paul was a deceiver too? Didn't he warn us about deceivers?dmatic wrote:
Are you suggesting that James was asking Paul to be deceiving?
Sean wrote:
I'm saying he was being "all things to all men". (1 Cor 9:22)
I don't believe Paul was a deceiver. I believe that he was not teaching people not to keep the law of Moses as was being FALSELY reported!
He submitted to James good idea because it was true, that Paul was keeping the Law and did teach people to keep it too!
dmatic
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Wow, you really can't read, can you? I'm sorry for that.dmatic wrote: So, Paul was a deceiver too? Didn't he warn us about deceivers?
I don't believe Paul was a deceiver. I believe that he was not teaching people not to keep the law of Moses as was being FALSELY reported!
He submitted to James good idea because it was true, that Paul was keeping the Law and did teach people to keep it too!
dmatic
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Sean, you previously wrote:
That's all.
I disagree with you.
I do not believe that James was asking Paul to deceive anyone, but asked Paul to perform the rite, as a means to dispel the FALSE RUMOR that Paul was teaching people not to keep the law of God as given through Moses.
that's all.
Then you replied to my short response with:If your interpretation of Acts 15 is correct, then why did James state this:
Act 21:18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
Act 21:21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
Interesting that they heard that Paul taught these things and Paul did not deny it. Moving on...
Act 21:22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
Act 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
Notice that Paul is told what to do to try and win over other Jews. Again, Paul does not deny the "rumors". This was done to convince others that Paul walked orderly and kept the law. Moving on...
To which, I asked:Hey dmatic, thanks for replying.
dmatic wrote:
Not much time now Sean, save for this short comment. You'll notice that the rumor was a false one! This means that the rumor that Paul was not teaching adherence to the Law of Moses was untrue! He was not teaching these things that he was being accused of teaching!
Peace, dmatic
It doesn't specifically say that. James wanted Paul to perform an act to make it look as if Paul did keep the law:
To this question you responded with:Are you suggesting that James was asking Paul to be deceiving?
I assumed that this was a sort of an affirmative answer. That yes, you were suggesting that James was asking Paul to deceive. This is your implication, which you defend with Paul being all things, (Including deceiving) to all men.I'm saying he was being "all things to all men". (1 Cor 9:22)
That's all.
I disagree with you.
I do not believe that James was asking Paul to deceive anyone, but asked Paul to perform the rite, as a means to dispel the FALSE RUMOR that Paul was teaching people not to keep the law of God as given through Moses.
that's all.
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Why would James need to ask Paul to do anything if Paul was already in obedience to the law of Moses?dmatic wrote:
To which, I asked:To this question you responded with:Are you suggesting that James was asking Paul to be deceiving?I assumed that this was a sort of an affirmative answer. That yes, you were suggesting that James was asking Paul to deceive. This is your implication, which you defend with Paul being all things, (Including deceiving) to all men.I'm saying he was being "all things to all men". (1 Cor 9:22)
And why did James himself admit that Gentiles were under no obligation to keep the law of Moses (Act 21:25) if he really thought they were commanded to?
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
dmatic,
One of the reasons I have stopped corresponding with you here (if you had not noticed) is that you would not deal at all with the scriptural points that are brought up to prove you wrong. This is a case in point. Please deal with the following issues that Sean has raised from the scriptural text. If you cannot, or will not, answer these biblical points, then you should admit defeat—or, if you are not honest enough to do that, then please take your Judaizing heresy elsewhere. What I am asking you for is your direct acknowledgment or rebuttal of the following points:
1. The Jews had heard a false rumor that Paul was teaching Jewish people to abandon circumcision and law-keeping (Acts 21:21).
2. Paul, in fact, did not teach such things to the Jews, since his teaching ministry was to Christians (and especially Gentile Christians), not Jews (Gal.2:9).
3. Paul had earlier, in fact, adopted as a personal ministry policy, that he would observe the law when he was among observant Jews (in order to reach them, not to teach them). However, he did not observe the law when he was among Gentiles. He clearly declares these things to be so, in 1 Cor.9:20-21. For you to call this "deceptive" is to set yourself directly against apostolic authority, since both Paul and James approved of this policy.
4. Though Paul was not, as the false rumor had reported, teaching Jews to give up the law (nor was he teaching them to observe it—he simply had no teaching ministry among Jews), both Paul and James agreed that such observance of the law was not to be imposed upon Gentiles (Acts 21:25)—thus they both disagreed with you.
5. For Paul to observe the law, at James' request, while in Jerusalem, was not deceptive, but diplomatic. It was in keeping with his regular policy, and it was dispelling the false rumor (thus serving the interest of truth, not deception).
6. The four restrictions that James placed upon the Gentiles were not an imposition of the law of Moses. Can you find the place for me, in the law of Moses, which forbids eating meat sacrificed to idols or animals that have been strangled? James' request was clearly a concession to the traditional sensitivities of the Jews—most of which were based upon their understanding of the law. James, and Paul, were both concerned to avoid offending, and unnecessarily alienating the unbelieving Jewish population, whom James was trying to influence toward Christ.
Now, dmatic, please prove to me that I am wrong in my earlier assessment of your lack of honesty (to which you took offense), and that I should allow you to continue posting here. I really and truly want to have a better opinion of you than that which I have derived from your practice of ignoring the scriptural challenges presented to you, in order to promote a personal agenda (that is not what this forum is about, and is a practice we do not tolerate indefinitely). Please write nothing else at this forum until you have dealt with these issues, one-by-one, without dodging or twisting the plain statements of scripture.
One of the reasons I have stopped corresponding with you here (if you had not noticed) is that you would not deal at all with the scriptural points that are brought up to prove you wrong. This is a case in point. Please deal with the following issues that Sean has raised from the scriptural text. If you cannot, or will not, answer these biblical points, then you should admit defeat—or, if you are not honest enough to do that, then please take your Judaizing heresy elsewhere. What I am asking you for is your direct acknowledgment or rebuttal of the following points:
1. The Jews had heard a false rumor that Paul was teaching Jewish people to abandon circumcision and law-keeping (Acts 21:21).
2. Paul, in fact, did not teach such things to the Jews, since his teaching ministry was to Christians (and especially Gentile Christians), not Jews (Gal.2:9).
3. Paul had earlier, in fact, adopted as a personal ministry policy, that he would observe the law when he was among observant Jews (in order to reach them, not to teach them). However, he did not observe the law when he was among Gentiles. He clearly declares these things to be so, in 1 Cor.9:20-21. For you to call this "deceptive" is to set yourself directly against apostolic authority, since both Paul and James approved of this policy.
4. Though Paul was not, as the false rumor had reported, teaching Jews to give up the law (nor was he teaching them to observe it—he simply had no teaching ministry among Jews), both Paul and James agreed that such observance of the law was not to be imposed upon Gentiles (Acts 21:25)—thus they both disagreed with you.
5. For Paul to observe the law, at James' request, while in Jerusalem, was not deceptive, but diplomatic. It was in keeping with his regular policy, and it was dispelling the false rumor (thus serving the interest of truth, not deception).
6. The four restrictions that James placed upon the Gentiles were not an imposition of the law of Moses. Can you find the place for me, in the law of Moses, which forbids eating meat sacrificed to idols or animals that have been strangled? James' request was clearly a concession to the traditional sensitivities of the Jews—most of which were based upon their understanding of the law. James, and Paul, were both concerned to avoid offending, and unnecessarily alienating the unbelieving Jewish population, whom James was trying to influence toward Christ.
Now, dmatic, please prove to me that I am wrong in my earlier assessment of your lack of honesty (to which you took offense), and that I should allow you to continue posting here. I really and truly want to have a better opinion of you than that which I have derived from your practice of ignoring the scriptural challenges presented to you, in order to promote a personal agenda (that is not what this forum is about, and is a practice we do not tolerate indefinitely). Please write nothing else at this forum until you have dealt with these issues, one-by-one, without dodging or twisting the plain statements of scripture.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
I had noticed, Steve. I'm glad you want to have a better opinion of me than you do, too. Your accusation that I have a practice of ignoring scriptural challenges presented to me so that I can promote my personal agenda is interesting. I'll take it under advisement.
To try to address your points:
1. I agree with Acts 21:21, though the false accusation from the Asian "Jews" was that Paul was "teaching all men everywhere against the people, and the law, and this place, and further brought Greeks into the temple and hath polluted this holy place." Acts 21:28. The rumor was false. he was not teaching men against the people or the law....
2. Paul did not teach such things to the "Jews" nor to the Gentiles. To suggest that Paul only taught "Christians" and especially "Gentile Christians" is to ignore the many passages that refer to Paul's interactions with "Jews"...i.e. Acts 19:1-10, particularly verse 10 which says: "And this (Paul's daily disputations in the synagogue at Ephesus concerning the kingdom of God for three months and in the school of Tyrannus for two years...so that all which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks! (Maybe you should honestly admit defeat here Steve
)
3. I don't recall calling Paul deceptive, though he would have been if he was doing as you suggest he was. Once again, your understanding is at odds with scripture's teaching. Where do you get the idea that Paul was not observing the law when he was among Gentiles? before King Agripp, Paul confessed that he was witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come....(Acts 26:22)
in Rome, paul taught from the Law of Moses and the Prophets Acts 28:23
Before Ananias, paul states in Acts 24:14 that he worships God according to the way which they deem a heresy, but is believing all things which are writtne in the law and prophets!
4. What James was saying to Paul in Acts 21:25 concerning the gentiles and vows of purification rites was not according to the customs of the "Jews" concerning the shaving of heads, etc.
5. Already answered.
6. Lev. 19:4-8 Lev. 7:22-27 Lev. 6:30
Exodus 34 :12-17 specifically verse 15 says: "Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice." This verse alone, should clearly show that eating "meats" sacrificed to idols was prohibited by "Moses". Your implication that neither this prohibition nor the eating of things strangled is contained in the Law of Moses is wrong. The way I understand the word "strangled" and the issue, is that eating of animals that were not bled out is the meaning of the prohibition. Of course, I don't either think that many of the animals were choked to death before being eaten by too many people groups anyway....Most probably used knives and/or spears or arrows.
Hope this helps and we'll see if you set a good example for me to admit defeat when you study these issues, of honesty!
Peace, dmatic
To try to address your points:
1. I agree with Acts 21:21, though the false accusation from the Asian "Jews" was that Paul was "teaching all men everywhere against the people, and the law, and this place, and further brought Greeks into the temple and hath polluted this holy place." Acts 21:28. The rumor was false. he was not teaching men against the people or the law....
2. Paul did not teach such things to the "Jews" nor to the Gentiles. To suggest that Paul only taught "Christians" and especially "Gentile Christians" is to ignore the many passages that refer to Paul's interactions with "Jews"...i.e. Acts 19:1-10, particularly verse 10 which says: "And this (Paul's daily disputations in the synagogue at Ephesus concerning the kingdom of God for three months and in the school of Tyrannus for two years...so that all which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks! (Maybe you should honestly admit defeat here Steve
)3. I don't recall calling Paul deceptive, though he would have been if he was doing as you suggest he was. Once again, your understanding is at odds with scripture's teaching. Where do you get the idea that Paul was not observing the law when he was among Gentiles? before King Agripp, Paul confessed that he was witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come....(Acts 26:22)
in Rome, paul taught from the Law of Moses and the Prophets Acts 28:23
Before Ananias, paul states in Acts 24:14 that he worships God according to the way which they deem a heresy, but is believing all things which are writtne in the law and prophets!
4. What James was saying to Paul in Acts 21:25 concerning the gentiles and vows of purification rites was not according to the customs of the "Jews" concerning the shaving of heads, etc.
5. Already answered.
6. Lev. 19:4-8 Lev. 7:22-27 Lev. 6:30
Exodus 34 :12-17 specifically verse 15 says: "Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice." This verse alone, should clearly show that eating "meats" sacrificed to idols was prohibited by "Moses". Your implication that neither this prohibition nor the eating of things strangled is contained in the Law of Moses is wrong. The way I understand the word "strangled" and the issue, is that eating of animals that were not bled out is the meaning of the prohibition. Of course, I don't either think that many of the animals were choked to death before being eaten by too many people groups anyway....Most probably used knives and/or spears or arrows.
Hope this helps and we'll see if you set a good example for me to admit defeat when you study these issues, of honesty!
Peace, dmatic
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