Can the Spirit "Fail"?

[Guest]

What follows is more of a rhetorical question since I don't want to detract from the present discussion. Though I would love to discuss it if you want to start a new thread.

I have often wanted a Calvinist to explain to me how a believer has more power to resist the Holy Spirit's leading in my walk of Holiness in trying to walk in the Spirit than does a non-believer who is responding to the gospel. Shouldn't I be in a better position with a softer heart to hear and respond to the Spirit than the unregenerate ? Why would regeneration be the only place where the Spirit can "fail" (to use a Calvinistic disparagement).

Sorry, I don't understand the question at all. Maybe you can rephrase it?

Hmm -- the Calvinist suggests that the unregenerate is totally incapable of responding to or rejecting the Gospel. In this query, I'm not really discussing the capability to respond (Total Depravity) but instead the ability to reject (Irresistable Grace). I am ashamed to say I am consciously aware of times far too frequent to confess that I am not always walking in the Spirit and make decisions that upon reflection were against the influence of the Spirit in my life. Unless I am unique in this respect, then this is either evidence of a lack of regeneration (which I refuse to accept) or is evidence that even the regenerate is "capable" of rejecting the influence of the Holy Spirit. If a regenerated (though not completely sanctified) believer can reject the Spirit, then why is it that one would deny the ability of an unregenerate person to reject the Spirit's leading towards salvation.

In other words, is the Spirit only irresistable in "saving" a person, and not in leading a person to holiness / sanctification? Which would you say the bible would indicate God was more interested in doing for His glory? (making sure some elect group of unregenerate live in eternity? or helping the regenerated to live a life that is holy and reflects positively as a witness for Him ?)

Another personal experience that informs my theology is the reality that virtually every time God has done a great work in my life besides regeneration He has seemed to "WAIT" for me to surrender to Him and He has let my poor choices and the consequences inform my surrender. Once I do surrender, in virtually every area of my life He has been there to supernaturally take over, but He does seem to wait for me (though certainly exerting pressure and leading). It's not that He waits for me to "DO THE THING," but He does seem to wait for me to "TURN TO HIM" in my heart and will in the doing. As a strictly practical matter, why do you think God would work differently in regeneration ?

I guess a related question is does the old quip "let go and let God" have any meaning? Does God "need" us to let go (or at least "want us to" anyway)? If not, it's odd that it sure seems to reflect a shared experience within the body.

[Guest]

Hi Darin,

...the Calvinist suggests that the unregenerate is totally incapable of responding to or rejecting the Gospel. In this query, I'm not really discussing the capability to respond (Total Depravity) but instead the ability to reject (Irresistable Grace).

But the two are inseparably related. In my view, the grace of regeneration accomplishes just that: it makes us alive. It is "irresistable" because it operates upon our very "resisting" mechanism: our hearts. It is the grace that gives us a new heart that can respond in faith and love to the gospel.

If a regenerated (though not completely sanctified) believer can reject the Spirit, then why is it that one would deny the ability of an unregenerate person to reject the Spirit's leading towards salvation.

The bible speaks much of resisting the Spirit, yes. In our natural state, we always and only would resist and reject the call of the gospel. But an unregenerate person does not resist the grace of regeneration because of the level at which that grace operates. God by His grace overcomes our resistance not through compelling force, but through a "heart transplant", taking out our heart of stone and putting in a new heart to love Him.

Consider the metaphors for this. Jesus likens it to a new birth, "born again" (cf. Jn. 1:13; Jn. 3:3-8). Just as it doesn't make sense to speak of "resisting" your physical birth, so does not not make sense to speak of "resisting" your new birth. It is also likened to resurrection, or being "made alive" (cf. Jn 5:21-26; Eph 2:1, 5). Just as Lazarus could not "resist" being raised (he was dead after all), we don't resist the grace of regeneration.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

God by His grace overcomes our resistance not through compelling force, but through a "heart transplant", taking out our heart of stone and putting in a new heart to love Him.

Then why do I not love Him fully and perfectly? Why is this direct transplant by God less total than the totality of the depravity I inherited indirectly ?

[Guest]

God by His grace overcomes our resistance not through compelling force, but through a "heart transplant", taking out our heart of stone and putting in a new heart to love Him.

Then why do I not love Him fully and perfectly? Why is this direct transplant by God less total than the totality of the depravity I inherited indirectly ?

Because we have two natures, cf. Rom 7:21-23. Surely that's not a controversial doctrine?

I'm beginning to wonder what regeneration or being born again means to you...

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Because we have two natures, cf. Rom 7:21-23. Surely that's not a controversial doctrine?
I'm beginning to wonder what regeneration or being born again means to you...

Don't worry - my view of regeneration is quite orthodox (though I wonder if there aren't some differences considering the Calvinist view of regeneration in the old testament)..

My only reason for bringing it up is the Calvinist system seems inconsistent in this regard.

Maybe you can describe your own view of "regeneration." If it means the same to you as it does to me, then what is the point of faith? What do you "gain" through faith in your understanding?

[Guest]

Because we have two natures, cf. Rom 7:21-23. Surely that's not a controversial doctrine?
I'm beginning to wonder what regeneration or being born again means to you...

Don't worry - my view of regeneration is quite orthodox (though I wonder if there aren't some differences considering the Calvinist view of regeneration in the old testament)..

My only reason for bringing it up is the Calvinist system seems inconsistent in this regard.

Maybe you can describe your own view of "regeneration." If it means the same to you as it does to me, then what is the point of faith? What do you "gain" through faith in your understanding?

Well, I have explained what regeneration means. It means being "made alive", being "born again", being "born from above", receiving a "heart of flesh", moving from death to life, etc.. It is the beginning point of salvation.

Faith is the instrumental means by which we enter into relationship with Christ, by clinging to Him and trusting Him with our all. Regeneration overcomes our inability and makes us able to exercise the gift of faith.

Regeneration is Christ raising Lazarus; faith is Lazarus coming out of the tomb. Without the former, the latter cannot happen.

You haven't explained your view (other than to claim it's orthodox; but what is it exactly?)

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

You haven't explained your view (other than to claim it's orthodox; but what is it exactly?)

I like this definition....

The act of God whereby He renews the spiritual condition of a sinner. It is a spiritual change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit so that the person then possesses new life, eternal life. Regeneration is a change in our moral and spiritual nature where justification is a change in our relationship with God. Also, sanctification is the work of God in us to make us more like Jesus. Regeneration is the beginning of that change. It means to be born again.

Faith is the instrumental means by which we enter into relationship with Christ, by clinging to Him and trusting Him with our all. Regeneration overcomes our inability and makes us able to exercise the gift of faith.

I would rephrase that as follows:
Faith is the instrumental means by which we enter into relationship with Christ, by clinging to Him and trusting Him with our all. Regeneration follows from our exercise the gift of faith and makes us able to live a life, pleasing to God, enjoying the fruits of that relationship and serving him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is Christ raising Lazarus; faith is Lazarus coming out of the tomb. Without the former, the latter cannot happen.

I would rephrase that as follows:
Faith is the prodigal coming home, hoping for but a crumb of support from his father in a broken and contrite heart. Regeneration is the Father's unending grace and love overflowing to that son in response to his exercise of humility and the bath that cleansed him and the robes that clothed him and the food that sustained him and enabled him to avoid the pig slop he otherwise had endured in. Without his "coming to his father," the father could not have poured out his grace in rebirthing his relationship in the family and regaining his inheritance within the household.

[Guest]

You haven't explained your view (other than to claim it's orthodox; but what is it exactly?)

I like this definition....

The act of God whereby He renews the spiritual condition of a sinner. It is a spiritual change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit so that the person then possesses new life, eternal life. Regeneration is a change in our moral and spiritual nature where justification is a change in our relationship with God. Also, sanctification is the work of God in us to make us more like Jesus. Regeneration is the beginning of that change. It means to be born again.

I like that definition too! Hey, we agree on something! Whoo-hoo!

Faith is the instrumental means by which we enter into relationship with Christ, by clinging to Him and trusting Him with our all. Regeneration overcomes our inability and makes us able to exercise the gift of faith.

I would rephrase that as follows:
Faith is the instrumental means by which we enter into relationship with Christ, by clinging to Him and trusting Him with our all. Regeneration follows from our exercise the gift of faith and makes us able to live a life, pleasing to God, enjoying the fruits of that relationship through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is Christ raising Lazarus; faith is Lazarus coming out of the tomb. Without the former, the latter cannot happen.

I would rephrase that as follows:
Faith is the prodigal coming home, hoping for but a crumb of support from his father in a broken and contrite heart. Regeneration is the Father's unending grace and love overflowing to that son in response to his exercise of humility and the bath that cleansed him and the robes that clothed him and the food that sustained him and enabled him to avoid the pig slop he otherwise had endured in. Without his "coming to his father," the father could not have poured out his grace in rebirthing his relationship in the family and regaining his inheritance within the household.

You've formulated your definitions well, thanks. You'll understand my obvious disagreement over inability, of course.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Plain and simple, calvinism's irresistable/effectual grace is said to accomplish exactly what it is meant to accomplish, and with perfection, which is to bring the unbeliever to believe. Yet sanctifying grace does not. Many Christians live defeated lives to the flesh, sin, and demonic attacks. Why is saving grace effectual but not sanctifying grace?

[Guest]

Plain and simple, calvinism's irresistable/effectual grace is said to accomplish exactly what it is meant to accomplish, and with perfection, which is to bring the unbeliever to believe. Yet sanctifying grace does not. Many Christians live defeated lives to the flesh, sin, and demonic attacks. Why is saving grace effectual but not sanctifying grace?

Hi Troy,

What Calvinist teaches that sanctifying grace fails to accomplish its purpose? On the contrary, we believe that since the whole of salvation is the work of God, that He will not fail:

• For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil 1:6, NASB)

Cheers,
Bob