Romans 3:9
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
When we use the word ( ALL) in a sentence this word must be referring to someone or something. The question is what or who is it referring to.
In order to know the reference of the word ALL we must not only read the sentence from which the word ALL was mentioned but also the sentences before and after. In Romans Chapter 3 Paul was addressing the people ( humans), the question is which group of humans Paul was referring to. Paul was referring to the Jews and greeks but we can further categorize which group of jews and greeks he was referring to. Paul was referring to people who are capable of making right and wrong decisons. Paul is not referring to babies because babies are not capable of making decision.
Therefore Paul is saying that ALL have sinned except babies
By the way the word sin can be use as a noun, verb, adverb or adjective.
The bottomline is that the word SIN is a process. In order to fulfill the process of sin a person must act on it either mentally or physically.
Babies are not capable of fulfilling the process of SIN and therefore guiltless and innocent.
ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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_PAULESPINO
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ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
How do you define "baby"? Is your answer found in scripture?
When does a person cease being a "baby"? Do you have scriptural evidence for your answer?
When does a person cease being a "baby"? Do you have scriptural evidence for your answer?
The severely mentally retarded also seem incapable of making rational decisions. Would you say that they have therefore never sinned? If one of them kills someone, would that, in his or her case, be a non-sin?Paul is not referring to babies because babies are not capable of making decision.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Hola Paul:
The only thing nessesary in order to sin , or to have faith , is awareness. There is nothing in the Bible indicating an additional nessesity for a person to be able to intellectially articulate or have a consience ability to verbalize in order to sin or have faith. All that is nessesary is awareness.
As for what time this awareness developes , consider this from Luke 1:
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
All are born sinners and neither infants nor the mentally retarded can be excluded on the basis of their intellectual developement.
All simply means ALL. You seem to be adding additional qualifications to what Paul said.Paul was referring to people who are capable of making right and wrong decisons. Paul is not referring to babies because babies are not capable of making decision.
The only thing nessesary in order to sin , or to have faith , is awareness. There is nothing in the Bible indicating an additional nessesity for a person to be able to intellectially articulate or have a consience ability to verbalize in order to sin or have faith. All that is nessesary is awareness.
As for what time this awareness developes , consider this from Luke 1:
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
All are born sinners and neither infants nor the mentally retarded can be excluded on the basis of their intellectual developement.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Thomas wrote:
As for mentally retarded persons, if their disability means they don't have a true proper concept of right vs. wrong, I don't think their seemingly "bad behavior" could be deemed "sinning." This might be something of a radical statement, but I think it is true. To me the concept of sin entails the concept of rebellion. In other words- "i know this is wrong, but by gum I am going to do it anyway." Little children and mentally disabled persons may, or may not, be able to formulate this thought pattern. It depends.
One thing I am sure of is that God will do right by every person. Thank goodness He is the judge and not us.
TK
I know that we have discussed this at length elsewhere on this forum. I don't agree with the above statement. I don't believe that we are born sinners, but I do believe that we are born with a nature that will ultimately result in us sinning. At what age is sin possible? I am sure it will vary from child to child.All are born sinners and neither infants nor the mentally retarded can be excluded on the basis of their intellectual developement.
As for mentally retarded persons, if their disability means they don't have a true proper concept of right vs. wrong, I don't think their seemingly "bad behavior" could be deemed "sinning." This might be something of a radical statement, but I think it is true. To me the concept of sin entails the concept of rebellion. In other words- "i know this is wrong, but by gum I am going to do it anyway." Little children and mentally disabled persons may, or may not, be able to formulate this thought pattern. It depends.
One thing I am sure of is that God will do right by every person. Thank goodness He is the judge and not us.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
Hola TK:
We define sin differently.
I would define sin as failure to do God's will , or placing our own will above that of God. In the NT the word sin is translated from the Greek "hamartia" which in Classical Greek means " flaw" or " falling short of the mark" . Seen in this manner all infants are incapable of knowing God's will and are unable to do it. They are born sinners.
The thing is , that adults are not able to fully know or comply with God's will either , they are constantly tempted to do the own will. Sin can be a willfull act but is most normally emotional , a result of "I Want" or "I Feel" , repentence is a willfull act. The difference between the sin of an infant and that of an adult is one of type ,quantity and quality. At the same time the NT , while it does differentiate between sins , says that the end result is the same irregardless of what sin it is. "For the wages of sin is death"
My point of view is exactly the oposite of yours as , in my view, it is a question of at what age a person can be saved and not a question of at what age a person may be condemned. I prefer to begin the process as early as pòssible.
I dont't want to imply that God is without mercy and does not save the infant irregardless of my opinion , I don't fully know God's will.
We define sin differently.
I would define sin as failure to do God's will , or placing our own will above that of God. In the NT the word sin is translated from the Greek "hamartia" which in Classical Greek means " flaw" or " falling short of the mark" . Seen in this manner all infants are incapable of knowing God's will and are unable to do it. They are born sinners.
The thing is , that adults are not able to fully know or comply with God's will either , they are constantly tempted to do the own will. Sin can be a willfull act but is most normally emotional , a result of "I Want" or "I Feel" , repentence is a willfull act. The difference between the sin of an infant and that of an adult is one of type ,quantity and quality. At the same time the NT , while it does differentiate between sins , says that the end result is the same irregardless of what sin it is. "For the wages of sin is death"
My point of view is exactly the oposite of yours as , in my view, it is a question of at what age a person can be saved and not a question of at what age a person may be condemned. I prefer to begin the process as early as pòssible.
I dont't want to imply that God is without mercy and does not save the infant irregardless of my opinion , I don't fully know God's will.
Well said.One thing I am sure of is that God will do right by every person. Thank goodness He is the judge and not us.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Hi Thomas-
for lack of a better term, you seem to suggest that sin is a universal "birth defect" that makes even babies culpable (due to their inability to even know God's will). is this what you are saying? i dont want to mis-rep your position.
TK
for lack of a better term, you seem to suggest that sin is a universal "birth defect" that makes even babies culpable (due to their inability to even know God's will). is this what you are saying? i dont want to mis-rep your position.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
I'll accept that. All , from conception , are seperated from God.TK wrote:Hi Thomas-
for lack of a better term, you seem to suggest that sin is a universal "birth defect" that makes even babies culpable (due to their inability to even know God's will). is this what you are saying? i dont want to mis-rep your position.
TK
It's a pretty good definition of original sin.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Possibly the matter can be resolved if we compare:
All have sinned... Rom 3:23 with How can we who died to sin still live in it? Rom 6:2
If we have actually died to sin, it would be impossible to still live in it. Yet Paul advises the same ones who have died to sin, "Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies" (vs 12). If we had actually died to sin, it would be impossible to let sin reign in us.
But fortunately Paul explains what he means in saying that we have died to sin:
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Rom 6:3-7
Paul seems to be saying that when we were baptised, our going down into the water not only symbolized our death to sin, but we actually underwent the process of dying to sin, being identified with Christ in His death ("we have been united with him in his death"). In this way the power of sin in our lives is broken.
Even Christ, who was without sin, is said to have died to sin:
The death he died, he died to sin... vs 10
So isn't his "death to sin" really his identification with us, and thus our "death to sin"?
Then Paul clinches it in verse 11:
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
When we count ourselves dead to sin, then freedom from sin can become a reality in our lives. Our baptismal "death to sin" doesn't in itself ensure that we will never sin.
And now for the comparison.
1. Our "death to sin" is not actual, but is an identification with Christ, and if we have faith ("count ourselves dead to sin") then freedom from sin, in a greater or lesser degree, becomes a certainty.
2. Similarily, "all have sinned", is not actual, but indicates our indentification with Adam and Eve, our sinning foreparents. Through the fall of Adam and Eve, and therefore genetically, sin in humanity becomes a certainty in a greater or lesser degree.
I agree with TK, that through the fall, we inherit a sinful nature. I think it could be safely affirmed that through Christ and His death, we are given a new, regenerated nature which tends toward righteousness.
All have sinned... Rom 3:23 with How can we who died to sin still live in it? Rom 6:2
If we have actually died to sin, it would be impossible to still live in it. Yet Paul advises the same ones who have died to sin, "Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies" (vs 12). If we had actually died to sin, it would be impossible to let sin reign in us.
But fortunately Paul explains what he means in saying that we have died to sin:
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Rom 6:3-7
Paul seems to be saying that when we were baptised, our going down into the water not only symbolized our death to sin, but we actually underwent the process of dying to sin, being identified with Christ in His death ("we have been united with him in his death"). In this way the power of sin in our lives is broken.
Even Christ, who was without sin, is said to have died to sin:
The death he died, he died to sin... vs 10
So isn't his "death to sin" really his identification with us, and thus our "death to sin"?
Then Paul clinches it in verse 11:
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
When we count ourselves dead to sin, then freedom from sin can become a reality in our lives. Our baptismal "death to sin" doesn't in itself ensure that we will never sin.
And now for the comparison.
1. Our "death to sin" is not actual, but is an identification with Christ, and if we have faith ("count ourselves dead to sin") then freedom from sin, in a greater or lesser degree, becomes a certainty.
2. Similarily, "all have sinned", is not actual, but indicates our indentification with Adam and Eve, our sinning foreparents. Through the fall of Adam and Eve, and therefore genetically, sin in humanity becomes a certainty in a greater or lesser degree.
I agree with TK, that through the fall, we inherit a sinful nature. I think it could be safely affirmed that through Christ and His death, we are given a new, regenerated nature which tends toward righteousness.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
From Paidion:
I think that what PaulEspino was getting at is that the ALL could not include all , because infants can not be held accountable for sinning. So that we are not dealing directly with the effect of regeneration but rather at what age a persons needs regeneration.
Romans 6:3-12 is a proof that baptism regenerates , but paedo-baptists use this as a reason to baptise infants while credo-baptists do not.
I agree also.I agree with TK, that through the fall, we inherit a sinful nature. I think it could be safely affirmed that through Christ and His death, we are given a new, regenerated nature which tends toward righteousness.
I think that what PaulEspino was getting at is that the ALL could not include all , because infants can not be held accountable for sinning. So that we are not dealing directly with the effect of regeneration but rather at what age a persons needs regeneration.
Romans 6:3-12 is a proof that baptism regenerates , but paedo-baptists use this as a reason to baptise infants while credo-baptists do not.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
To clear up what is normally a confusion regarding regeneration:
Because credo-baptist hold that a person must first believe and then be baptised , they hold that regeneration (born again) and salvation are the same thing. Under this system that is quite logical and correct.
Paedo-baptist hold that a person is regenerated (born again) by baptism and freed from enslavement to sin , but is not saved until they believe. Whether that belief comes at the age of 2 or 72 is between the person and God.Salvation and born again are two seperate things.
That is , baptism is a check for salvation , from God , but it cannot be cashed in for salvation until belief occurs.
Because credo-baptist hold that a person must first believe and then be baptised , they hold that regeneration (born again) and salvation are the same thing. Under this system that is quite logical and correct.
Paedo-baptist hold that a person is regenerated (born again) by baptism and freed from enslavement to sin , but is not saved until they believe. Whether that belief comes at the age of 2 or 72 is between the person and God.Salvation and born again are two seperate things.
That is , baptism is a check for salvation , from God , but it cannot be cashed in for salvation until belief occurs.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason: