ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Paidion:

Saved from what? I am not being facetious. I must know how you are using the word "saved" before I can answer this question.

Saved from sin , Saved to eternal life.

"The one who is righteous will live by faith." Rom 1:16,17

As seen through Romans 3 , would this not be saying"" "The one who is righteous (by faith) will live by faith."

That is he who has faith will show it by his life. Faith being shown by obedience , or as I said (outward) obedience the result of (inward) faith.

In judgeing us by our works God is judgeing us by the fruit that our faith produces.

[quote I guess what I was implying is that the quintessential thing which God wants is obedience. Why would he care anything about our faith if we did not, through his grace, obey, our faith in isolation from anything else? In other words, I don't think our faith is intrinsically important to him except where it relates to our personal relationship with him and our obedience to him. Rather it is necessary to us, in order to have such a relationship and to obey.
][/quote]


I can't say I would agree , I would say that faith is the relationship.
To base everything on obedience is to set it to a standard that no one can meet 100%.

I too have several dog's whom I value for their affection as their obedience is problematical.

[Guest]

Paidion:

I thought about it and expect you will need an expanded version of what I mean about "saved from sin"

[Jesus] has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

saved from sin= no longer enslaved to sin , able to repent of sin

It does not mean that sin itself dissapears but that the effect of sin (death) is no more as Christ has paid , by his death , the punishment due us.

[Guest]

It does not mean that sin itself dissapears but that the effect of sin (death) is no more as Christ has paid , by his death , the punishment due us.

What good does punishment do us if it does not correct us and get rid of sin? What purpose does it serve God? Did God take out his wrath on his Son so that we could get off scott free? Did he take delight in that?

Will God allow sinful individuals in heaven because they've been covered by Christ's blood?

No, God is not satisfied until sin itself is done away with. That's what I believe is meant in the Hebrew passage.

But nothing unclean shall enter [the Holy City], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood... Rev 21:27

God requires complete purity. True, none of us are perfected yet. But that's why God left the five-fold ministry on earth --- for our perfection:

And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to [perfect]manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ... Ephesians 4:11-15

Yes, the RSV which I quoted states "mature manhood" but the Greek word means "perfect" or "complete". We are not yet complete. Paul recognized this in himself:

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

For some reason the RSV uses "perfect" here, rather than "Not that I have already obtained this or am already mature". I'm not sure why.
However, Paul expected that he would become perfect or complete.

Philippians 1:6 I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the day of Jesus Christ

That good work is the good work of becoming perfected or completed. Indeed, when we are completed, we will be Christ-like:

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Jesus was the first to be raised to an indestrictible life, but his disciples will be also when He returns. Those who share in that resurrection will be holy:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those who conquer sin will not be hurt by the second death (which is the Lake of Fire):

Revelation 2:11 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death.

We are required to be perfect:

Matthew 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Christ would not require us to be perfect, if it were impossible to be perfect.

We are required to be holy:

1 Peter 1:15,16... but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

God would not require us to be holy if it were an impossibility.

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

[Guest]

Paidion:

What good does punishment do us if it does not correct us and get rid of sin? What purpose does it serve God?

Atonement , the price for sin must be payed. He let's you know the price up front , it is death. You pay it yourself or He allows a sacrificial substitute the Temple sacrifice , or in our case His Son.

Did God take out his wrath on his Son so that we could get off scott free? Did he take delight in that?

Is it wrathfull to give up your favorite on behalf of others , is it delightfull? Have you never done something for others in need?

John 3:16

Will God allow sinful individuals in heaven because they've been covered by Christ's blood?

Yes , otherwise heaven would be empty. Only Christ has been perfect and without sin. Do you not believe that Christ's blood is addequate for the job? Can He not purify those whom he chooses?

We may be perfect in faith , an unquestioning and trustfull faith.We are made perfect through repentance. We are not made perfect by our own efforts We are made perfect by Christ's sacrifice. We are made perfect by humility before God. We are incapable of perfert obedience. We are incapable of perfection through our own efforts.

Perfect obedience to God's will requires perfect knowledge of God's will. To obtain this perfect knowledge we must become Gods ourselves. This is the very sin of Adam , a pridefull desire to become as God.

[Guest]

Atonement , the price for sin must be payed. He let's you know the price up front , it is death. You pay it yourself or He allows a sacrificial substitute the Temple sacrifice , or in our case His Son.

Why must "a price be paid" for past sin? What good does it do? This is your theory of atonement. I don't see it as the one which the scripture portrays. I invite you to look at my essay, actually the first chapter of a booklet (which I still haven't completed). When you are finished, you may also want to examine Chapter 3: Offerings and Sacrifice. This can also be found in "Misc. Essays by Participants".

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=708

Is it wrathfull to give up your favorite on behalf of others , is it delightfull? Have you never done something for others in need?

I have never tortured to death an innocent person for the sake of others, and certainly not my son.

Yes [God will allow sinful individuals in heaven] , otherwise heaven would be empty.

God will not allow sin or sinful persons in heaven!!!

Revelation 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood...

Only Christ has been perfect and without sin.

Right... so far. But God will not be satisfied until all are perfect.

Do you not believe that Christ's blood is addequate for the job?

Christ's blood is adequate for the purpose for which it was shed --- deliverance from sin.

Can He not purify those whom he chooses?

With their coöperation, of course! What is the relevance of this question to the subject at hand?

We are made perfect through repentance.

No, that is only the first step over the threshold of the door to salvation from sin.

We are not made perfect by our own efforts

Nor have I ever even hinted that we are.

Perfect obedience to God's will requires perfect knowledge of God's will. To obtain this perfect knowledge we must become Gods ourselves. This is the very sin of Adam , a pridefull desire to become as God.

Even Paul claimed to be skilled in knowledge:

2 Corinthians 11:6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

Yet he yearned to know Christ more fully:
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death...

Paul prayed that the Ephesian disciples
... may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:18, 19

To equate perfect knowledge of God's will with Adam's sin is, in my opinon, ludicrous.

[Guest]

Paidion-

sometimes I can be a little dense. sorry about that. but are you saying that unless a person(Christian?) attains to sinless perfection while living, God will not accept him? Or are you talking about some purgatory-like experience, post physical death? I dont think you are, but nor do I believe that anybody attains sinless perfection in this life. If I am correct, and you are correct (that God only accepts sinless perfection) then it seems indeed heaven will be empty.

TK

[Guest]

sometimes I can be a little dense. sorry about that. but are you saying that unless a person(Christian?) attains to sinless perfection while living, God will not accept him? Or are you talking about some purgatory-like experience, post physical death? I dont think you are, but nor do I believe that anybody attains sinless perfection in this life. If I am correct, and you are correct (that God only accepts sinless perfection) then it seems indeed heaven will be empty.

You are not at all dense. You have asked excellent questions.

No, I am not saying that one must "attain sinless perfection while living" in order that God accept him. Yet, God will require such a state for those who will live forever with Him.

I will state a number of beliefs I have gained from the scriptures. Since previously I have quoted the references, I will simply state them now. If you need any reference just say so.

1. It is impossible to even become a disciple of Christ, without forsaking the self-life completely and following Him.

2. Through faith, together with the enabling grace made available by Christ's supreme sacrifice, it becomes possible to overcome sin and to live righteously.

3. "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." So how could one who is in Christ still be living in sin?

4. God, who has begun the good work of regeneration, will continue
work in Christ's disciples for the purpose of their perfection, until the day Jesus returns. Then at our resurrection, the finishing touches will be put upon us, and we will be perfected as God intended. If this inner process is not presently taking place in a person's life, then it is questionable whether or not he is a disciple.

5. Within the hearts and minds (or souls and spirits) of Chist's disciples, God is working everything for good. He has preappointed then to be conformed to the image of Christ. He has called them; he has justified them; he has glorified them. This may also be a process, but spoken of in the past because God will surely do them. This process does not occur in a non-disiciple.

6. God works in a different way with non-disciples. He sends disciples to them to influence them or even lead them to take that first step in repenting and forsaking all to follow Christ. If they take that first step, then He works within them as described above. For they are then disciples.

I am not sure whether or not there are true disciples who do not coöperate with God's grace in working within them who make no progress at all in overcoming sin, or how God will deal with those who die immediately after becoming disciples. It seems that there are people whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life who will not share in the first resurrection (at Christ's return) but will find themselves raised with the wicked at the second resurrection (after the 1000 year reign of Christ) who will not be cast into the Lake of Fire with the wicked. I do not know how God will deal with them as I do not find any information on that in the Scriptures.

[Guest]

Thanks- point # 4 clears it up for me.

In regard to #3, i assume when you say "living in sin" this is distinct from saying "occasionally stumbling into sin".

I dont believe I really disagree with your viewpoint.

I also assume that you would argue that a "carnal" christian is not really a christian at all, because he is not a disciple. correct?

TK