another Faith-healing gone bad

Post by **_TK** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:57 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,368863,00.html

TK

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:10 pm

Idiots! I'm just sickened and disgusted.

Post by **_Sean** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:18 am

Why don't you list all the articles that relate to medical malpractice? Would you like me to mention the people I've known personally who have nearly died because they put faith in their doctor? I don't have anything agianst going to a doctor (I had my appendix removed a few years ago). I just don't trust them. I do trust God, and have no problem losing my life while trusting Him. If God couldn't heal someone who had a urinary tract blockage without a doctor then there is no God, no reserrection from the dead and no need to do anything but eat and drink cuz were all gonna die!

That's probably why Jesus hasn't returned yet. He's waiting for medical doctors to reach a point where they can raise the dead, then God will raise the dead "through doctors".

Sorry for the rant, I've just been edgy lately.

Realize that there is sarcasm in what I said. I just don't understand why people who think God will heal them are are looked at as stupid for placing their faith in Him alone.

Post by **_TK** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:14 am

Hi Sean-

I dont post these articles because I believe that God doesn't heal; quite the contrary. I believe the church has abdicated its responsibility in getting people healed. 90% of the people in the church today, when they become sick, talk about what medicines their dr put them on, what specialist they are going to etc. They dont talk about having the elders, or other fellow believers, anointing them with oil and praying for them WITH THE EXPECTATION that they will be healed. No, Christians, particularly non-charismatics, look to medicine first and God second.

The reason I post articles like this is because it highlights some dilemmas- namely can we have faith in God to heal, and still go to doctors?

If it is not God's will to heal me w/o medicine, then why should I go to the doctor to heal me with medicine and thwart God's will?

A deeper question- why would God NOT want to heal us? (I personally think in 99.9% of cases he DOES. many will disagree but I don't mind).

TK

Post by **_Christopher** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:36 am

As someone who lives in this area (Gladstone/Oregon City), and one who believes God heals miraculously when it's His will to do so, I have just a few comments about this:

1. This particular group (Followers of Christ) is more like a cult and has a long history of this kind of media attention. It is a closed and reclusive group that tries to have little or no contact with others outside their group. They do not accept new membership and non-members of the group are not even allowed in their building for weddings, funerals, etc.

2. Every few years, we hear something like this relating this group. It is my understanding that their members are forbidden from going to the doctor for anything. They don't get broken bones set and they do not even go to the dentist. If a member defies this rule, they are shunned (and shunning includes immediate family).

3. Many of the deaths that have occurred with this group were very preventable with medical attention. Although I don't hold doctors as highly as most of society does (I know too many of them

), I personally believe that through an ever-expanding medical knowledge base and technology God has gifted us with the ability to heal many ailments ourselves. It's one thing to pray for healing for things which medicine cannot help, but a wholesale rejection of medical treatment could be a rejection of a good gift that God has given IMO.

I've personally known people who were healed by God of incurable things like Hep B and Hep C, but it took a medical examination to even realize that they were healed and many doctors have come to realize that God does things they cannot. I think that can be a powerful testimony to them and to others.

I think this group in OC is in serious error with their practices and does not glorify Jesus' name in any way by wearing it.

Just my opinion.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:07 am

TK wrote:A deeper question- why would God NOT want to heal us?

God started to heal people through Kathyn Kuhlman before she even realized He was using her! She was simply preaching the gospel, and various people would come up to her after the meeting and tell her they were healed while she was preaching. So she began to pray with a few strong disciples before each meeting and look to God for His leading. He then began to show her who was being healed, and she would announce that certain individuals in the audience were being healed.

TIME magazine sent out a reporter to debunk what was supposedly happening in her meetings. But the reporter saw with his own eyes such things as twisted limbs being suddenly straightened to normality. His report for TIME was quite different from what was expected. He stated that miracles were really taking place. The biggest miracle, in my opinion, was that TIME actually printed his report!

Kathryn Kuhlman had medical doctors present at her meetings to verify the healings.

On one occasion, the wife of a non-Christian medical doctor urged her husband to attend a Kathryn Kuhlman meeting. The doctor had a deaf right ear, a back ailment of some type, and I forgot the third condition. He didn't want to go. But finally after his wife bugged him a lot, he consented to go. At one point in the meeting, Kathryn Kuhlman announced, "There's a man sitting (she gave the location) who has a deaf right ear, a ______ back, and (she named the third condition). I want him to come forward right now and declare his healing ." No one came forward.

"Hey Honey, that's you!" the doctor's wife exclaimed.

"Nah! You're dreaming."

The doctor hadn't even recognized he was healed until, on the way home in the car, his wife said to her husband, "Have you noticed you haven't had to turn your left ear toward me when I talk to you?" That got the man thinking. When he got home, he checked his back and the third condition.
All was healed!

The doctor returned to the Kuhlman meeting next evening and apologized to her and the audience for his ignorance. He was led to the Lord that night, and became a disciple of Christ.

Many hundreds of people from many different places heard about the healings, and the sick and crippled began to pour in. In spite of the many miracles that took place, fewer than 10% were healed on any given occasion. Kathryn once said that the first question she wanted to ask the Lord when she saw him was why He didn't heal the vast majority who came to be healed.

TK, I don't think the answer to that question is that God doesn't WANT to heal them. I think it has something to do with the stability of the universe.
I am not sure what that would be in most cases of non-healings. But suppose, for example, that whenever a true Christian stepped off a cliff, or stumbled on the roof of a house, that God always slowed his descent to the ground, so as not to hurt himelf. What would become of the "law of gravity? People wouldn't know for sure when it would apply and when it wouldn't. It would to be an inconsistent "law".

The universe is an extremely complex, and its workings and "laws" complex. I think that's why God, in the vast majority of cases. does not answer people's prayers by suspending or overriding these laws .

Post by **_TK** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:14 pm

Paidion wrote:

TK, I don't think the answer to that question is that God doesn't WANT to heal them. I think it has something to do with the stability of the universe.
I am not sure what that would be in most cases of non-healings. But suppose, for example, that whenever a true Christian stepped off a cliff, or stumbled on the roof of a house, that God always slowed his descent to the ground, so as not to hurt himelf. What would become of the "law of gravity? People wouldn't know for sure when it would apply and when it wouldn't. It would to be an inconsistent "law".

i think this is a reasonable explanation- the same chemical properties that make water essential to life also makes it capable of drowning, destroying towns in floods, and sinking the Titanic.

Christopher wrote:

This particular group (Followers of Christ) is more like a cult and has a long history of this kind of media attention. It is a closed and reclusive group that tries to have little or no contact with others outside their group. They do not accept new membership and non-members of the group are not even allowed in their building for weddings, funerals, etc.

Christopher- Do you think these people are true Christians? If not, it might explain their lack of success in healing, or perhaps they are very successful and we only hear of the tragic failures. do you have any insight on this?

TK

Post by **_Christopher** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:22 pm

Personally, I believe the group as an organization has left the teachings of Jesus (like the no new member thing for example) , but I have no doubt that there are true "followers of Christ" within that group.

Some of the litigation and legislative bills being proposed are from former members of the group. I have not heard from anyone currently or formerly associated with the group about any "successes" in healing. But that doesn't of course mean there aren't any.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:07 pm

Here's a site that seems to give quite a lot of information on the group:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/foc/foc1.html

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:01 am

As far as i can understand Jesus's own words it seems to me it is God's will to heal us but it's conditional on various things.
However God seems to usually use people to do his will on earth, therefore i would seek medical help immediately because that is likely who God will work through , but still praying for a healing.