Am I a "Gnostic Amillennialist" ?

[_Rick_C]

Please let me explain what I'm getting at and asking about....

Gnosticism, both ancient and modern, is a theological system that emphasizes "knowing" who you are, what "God" is, and how you relate to this present world. It's doctrines are dualistic: the material world is evil or has evil in it and the spiritual realm is the source of good. "Salvation" in this system is "knowing your true source (or self) is spiritual."

The Gnostic view of Christology (the nature of the person and 'work' of Jesus Christ) isn't specific, nor fixed. Ancient and modern Gnostics do not hold to any particular view of what Jesus was like, in terms of his being a "real" person. At times he was a real in-the-flesh human being...at others he merely appeared to be so.

Gnostic soteriology (the doctrine of salvation) is essentially unconcerned with "sin," though they did, and do, acknowledge "we do wrong things." What matters in Gnostic salvation is knowing your true source, that your real identity is in "God" and/or in a multitude of "emanations" coming from God, who is the source of real-reality. With this Gnostic spiritual God-consciousness, which is hidden from the masses, Gnostics maintain we can "know we are truly spiritual beings" and thus, escape the deceptions and bounds of the material world.

Of course, Gnostic soteriology and Christology are unorthodox (which I won't go into). I'm not a Gnostic...but what is this post and thread about?
__________________________________

In my interactions with premillennialists and from what I see in popular (evangelical) religion; I'm not sure how to say this....

As amillennial, I see and understand that: The Lord Jesus Christ reigns right now!
(And just how many exclamation marks could follow my last sentence might be too numerous to count)!!!!!!!

I'll just say it.
Premillennialists don't "know the secret" that Christ reigns.
They do, in one sense, seem to see it to a degree, albeit "through a glass darkly," so to speak. Let me give an example.

In a recent discussion about eschatology (doctrine of the last things), I mentioned I'm amillennial to a premillennialist. They didn't know what amillennial meant, so I briefly explained it, "We believe Jesus is reigning now, right at this very moment," I said. The reply was, "Well, sure! Jesus is our savior and will take us to heaven when the rapture happens. But he isn't reigning yet. That won't happen till the millennium."

Don't get me wrong, folks, but this not-seeing Christ's reign seems like a type of spiritual dullness or even blindness. I'm not saying premillennialists are deceived to the point of being unsaved! (after all, Jesus has just enough power right now to save them, in their opinion)....

When I hear people say, "But he isn't reigning yet", it puts a "prick in my spirit"...(not at all because I disagree with them doctrinally)...but because they are not giving the Lord ALL the honor due Him...that hurts me on the insides.

When I came to see the FULL reign of Jesus---though it hasn't been fully consummated; and He still has enemies till He comes---seeing that Jesus is actually much more than "my personal savior" in His [so very powerful] reign: I experienced a totally RAD change of life and understanding of God. My confidence (faith) in God sky-rocketed through the roof! (and I'm not kidding around)!

(But the "secret" is out)!
JESUS REIGNS!
Just how much more power would the premillennialists have in their preaching and witness if they "knew this secret"? If they knew their savior was much more than just a ticket to heaven....think about it. If I had a choice between a Ticket To Heaven God and THE God Who Reigns Over EVERYTHING...(I trust you get my point)! The latter is the God I preach!

When I fellowship with premillennialists; at times I get a strong sensation that they simply don't "know" just how totally OVER the Universe Jesus rules.

Sometimes, it almost seems like they have a different savior and Lord.
It's like I'm worshiping THE Number One, Highest, 5-Star General and they're worshiping a Corporal or a Sargeant....(if this metaphor makes sense to you).

They say, "He will 'become' King of kings and Lord of lords during the millennium."
However, Jesus won't "become" any more of either than He is RIGHT NOW.

To be honest, I somewhat feel sorry for premillennialists (I really do).
They just don't KNOW!

I have more thoughts on this, but for now:
Am I a "Gnostic Amillennialist" ?
(It almost seems that radical to me, compared to my premillennialist friends & family, like I know THE SECRET that they really and truly don't)....
Thanks,

[Guest]

I kind of feel the same way. Nicely put Rick.

[Guest]

If Christians say, "Jesus isn't reigning yet," I would have to ask them, "Then what is He doing up there on that throne?" (Rev.3:21).

Dispensationalists (unlike some other premillennialists) can get pretty weird about the "lordship" issue.—even to the point of them calling "lordship salvation" a heresy. However, the fact that Jesus is Lord is the central declaration of the apostolic gospel message (Acts 2:36), and the defining verbal confession of those who are saved (Rom.10:9). If Jesus is not sovereign and reigning, He is not even a lord—much less the Lord—in which case, apostolic testimony was false.

[Guest]

Premillennialists don't "know the secret" that Christ reigns.

This statement is way too broad, Rick. All historic premillenialists with whom I am familiar, including myself, and second century Christian writers, believe(d) that Christ reigned from the moment He said to the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God is among you, or even earlier when He said "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" and called His disciples to forsake all and follow Him.

However, we believe His reign will someday be fuller ---- on the day when it will be said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ages and ages" Revelation 11:15

Jesus also taught that the Kingdom would grow like a tiny mustard seed which grows and becomes a large plant, or the way yeast spreads in bread dough until the whole thing is leavened.

So we historic pre-millenialists uphold the truth of the present reign of Christ, but we look forward to a fuller and more complete reign. Indeed, those among us who believe in the reconciliation of all to God believe His reign will be absolutely complete on the day when every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

[_Rick_C]

Thanks for the replies to an admittedly strange analogy or comparison.
Note: this post was edited (for clarification with no major changes).

Things to ponder.
(1) Is David's Throne also the Great White Throne?
(2) Will Jesus be seated on one or both of these Thrones when he returns?

Jesus is Lord and Christ as Steve pointed out (Acts 2:36, as the Greek emphasizes "beyond any doubt"); and the promise of the Holy Spirit is to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord shall call unto himself (Acts 2:39); and the call to repentance is to be saved from "this perverse generation" (Acts 2:40).

(3) Some say "this perverse generation" were first century Jewish people and that that generation ended with 70AD. This is true in the sense that the nation of Israel, as a particular ethnic and corporate national entity, was being judged---while being offered salvation---till 70AD: (The interim period between 30AD and 70AD was the call to national repentance). During this interim time, the Gentiles began to be brought in (with Cornelius and his house). Since this event, salvation is offered to Jews and Gentiles alike in this current age till Jesus returns, and "all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26).
(4) If the promised gift of the Holy Spirit will continue to be given during an earthly millennium, wouldn't the same rules apply for how to saved? For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—(Eph 2:8, NIV).
(5) So how would people be saved in an earthly millennium? With Christ literally right in front of their eyes, forcing himself and his rule over them, how could they have faith and, therefore, obey in faith? (as all would see him and have physical proof). The Bible teaches salvation comes by faith---(not by sight)---and that obedience follows faith.
(6) The resurrection will happen on "the last day" according to Jesus (John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54). If there will be a literal earthly reign during this age, the resurrection will happen at the end of the 1,000 years!
(7) "The age to come" is identified as being actualized on the Day of the Lord, at the rapture/2nd Coming of Christ. This presents further problems for premillennialists. They have to come up with biblical reasons for an earthly millennium occurring in this present age.
{8} I have a list of of maybe 50 things along these lines to challenge premillennialism (from a long debate I had @ Beliefnet and elsewhere). No premillennialist was able to answer my questions with biblical proof. They offered their own theological systems "proofs" which are fine as opinions, but unsatisfactory for me (as an ex-premillennialist).

Example, Number 8.
Dr. Mark Hitchcock, a premillennialist, had a session in CWS (Converse With Scholars in Paltalk). I asked him (in effect, not precise wording):
"According to premillennial theology, Christ and Christians will have immortal bodies during the millennium while unbelievers will be born and die as all people currently do. Over a period of 1,000 years, we Christians and Christ will see babies born, grow up, get old, and die. We would see approximately 15 generations 'come and go' like this.

"This state of glorified existence for Christians with Christ is in the future for all current believers and all who will believe before Christ returns. Where does the Bible explicitly teach that Christians and Christ---in their resurrected and eternally immortal bodies---will literally exist alongside mortals on this earth, watching generation after generation come and go?"

"If it will be our 'calling' or 'duty' to force Christ onto unbelievers for 1,000 years---which is entirely unlike how Christ's Kingdom is presented and proclaimed now---where is this spelled out in the Bible?"

Dr. Hitchcock, while being a nice fellow, had no answers other than to say,
"We believe these things will happen."
(a theological system's opinion, and not a biblical answer)
________________

A sharp dichotomy between the material from immaterial is a basic Gnostic tenet.
The glorified Christ and eternally resurrected Christians in their ultimate "good" state of ontological being...existing alongside sinful mortals in a fallen "evil" material world?

(Think about it...Is it really: "Are Premillennialists Gnostic?")???
________________


It's TNP radio time, 'all I have for now.

It could simply be that some people realize Realized Eschatology....
(while others don't)....

[Guest]

(4) The resurrection will happen on "the last day" according to Jesus (John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54). If there will be a literal earthly reign during this age, the resurrection will happen at the end of the 1,000 years!

Only if you interpret "the last day" as "the last day of the earth". But what if it means "the last day of the age", that is this present age, followed by the coming of Christ and the beginning of the Kingdom age ----- the thousand years.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I tell you, in the renewed world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Isaiah 11

1 ¶ There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear;

Already fulfilled in Christ when He walked the earth.

4 but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins.
6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious.
11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
12 He will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

Yet to be fulfilled during the 1000 years.

[_Rick_C]

Hi Paidion,

I just edited my last post...and saw yours (sorry, I added some stuff).
I'll read yours now & reply later, Thanks,

[_Rick_C]

Hello Don,

First, I wrote:
(4) The resurrection will happen on "the last day" according to Jesus (John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54). If there will be a literal earthly reign during this age, the resurrection will happen at the end of the 1,000 years!

You replied:
Only if you interpret "the last day" as "the last day of the earth". But what if it means "the last day of the age", that is this present age, followed by the coming of Christ and the beginning of the Kingdom age ----- the thousand years.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I tell you, in the renewed world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

First, the translation you've used: "in the renewed world" can be translated as "the age when all things are renewed". Though your translation could be used in support of premillennialism; I know of no major translation that translates it as you have (even in translations that have a premillennialist bias).

IMOs.
This renewal began with the Messianic Age. The New Creation was initiated at the same time, (2 Cor 5:17). The restoration and renewal of God's Israel, now comprised of Jews and Gentiles, has begun and continues till the Lord returns (Acts 15:15-17, Romans 11:26, etc.)

This Messianic Age or Kingdom Rule, which Jesus was referring to in Matt 19:38, was being initiated when Jesus came (and we could even say it was beginning with the Incarnation). His enthronement as Lord and Christ (Messiah) happened with his Ascension, taking his seat on David's throne. The Lord's followers (disciples and/or apostles) began declaring these truths and executing the judgment of the twelve tribes of Israel, commanding them to repent on the Day of Pentecost, (ref. cit., Acts 2:38, etc.).

Isaiah 11

1 ¶ There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear;

Already fulfilled in Christ when He walked the earth.

Agreed.

4 but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins.
6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious.
11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
12 He will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

Yet to be fulfilled during the 1000 years.

I disagree in that:
Verses 10-12, for example, has happened beginning with the First Coming and continues to happen till Jesus returns: (The existing remnant of Jesus' time were the disciples. Then, Jesus and the disciples were calling the rest of the remnant to return. This continued on following Pentecost, on to Acts 15, and, as Paul elaborates in Romans on the (still) currently returning remnant: "all Israel will be saved").

Verses 1-9 can be said to be already realized for all who have believed, though not in the last sense of final eschatological expectation.
For example, verse 4's "and decide equity for the meek" and "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." The meek are already in a state of blessedness, since Jesus came and pronounced that fact. However, the New Earth of eschatological inheritance has not yet completely arrived. We're in an interim time of continuous and eternal blessedness: "already/not yet."

I agree in that:
In the OT, the Day of the Lord is seen as one event.
However, Jesus, the Apostles, and NT authors present it as "already/not yet." In other words, the OT authors could not see how the Day would really come to pass and that it would actually happen in two stages in the First and Second Comings.

Jews of Jesus' time expected to be resurrected on "the last day" which they believed would occur on the Day of the Lord (if they were not dead at that time). What they and OT prophets did not know was that only one person would be resurrected before the rest (Jesus)! Thanks,

[_Rick_C]

From your earlier post, (Don):

However, we believe His reign will someday be fuller ---- on the day when it will be said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ages and ages" Revelation 11:15

In an ongoing study of Rev 20-22 in comparison with the rest of NT teaching; I believe that there is some sense in which Rev 11:15 and other similar passages have begun to occur in "already/not yet" (but this may be beyond the scope of this thread).

Briefly, the declaration that "Jesus is Lord" (who has all authority in heaven and on earth) is what we proclaim to every tribe, nation, and peoples.
1 Cor 15:24-25, NET
24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

On the one hand, we think of believers as being in the Kingdom, which is true. But this passage and the NT proclamation that Jesus is Lord---Jesus, who has all authority everywhere!---seems to indicate that his Kingdom, in some certain sense, also encompasses the whole earth and everyone in it.

(Not to trail off on side-topics, I'm just sharing some of my thoughts on the Big Picture), Thanks,

[Guest]

Thank you, Rick. I could follow your reasoning from the amillinialist point of view with one exception:

First, the translation you've used: "in the renewed world" can be translated as "the age when all things are renewed". Though your translation could be used in support of premillennialism; I know of no major translation that translates it as you have (even in translations that have a premillennialist bias).

I find the translation you suggested just as acceptable as the one I used.
In fact I think the one you suggested supports premillennialism even better. For the age "when all things are renewed" (though there's no phrase in the Greek text which translates as "all things"), can still be said to refer to the 1000-year reign of Christ.