A question for Trinitarians

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:35 am

I have been wondering how a Trinitarian would understand the following words of Jesus in His prayer to the Father:

And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3 NRSV

Is not Jesus "true God"? If not, how can He be part of the Trinity?

Also, by use of the conjunction "and", Jesus seems to indicate that He is something other than the only true God.

Please understand that I am not arguing against the concept of a Trinity. So please don't simply quote a bunch of verses which you believe to support the Trinitarian concept. Just explain how these words of Christ are consistent with the concept.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:17 am

And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3 NRSV

Is not Jesus "true God"? If not, how can He be part of the Trinity?

Also, by use of the conjunction "and", Jesus seems to indicate that He is something other than the only true God.

My understanding Paidion is that the pre-incarnate Christ was a part of God aka "the Word" and that when he came to earth he emptied himself of his divine power (kenosis) from Phil 2.7 , and became a man like us in every way. So Christ while he walked the earth was a flesh and blood man and all the miracles he did were not performed until after he was baptised and filled with the Holy Spirit. When he was resurrected he was glorified with the glory he had with the Father from the beginning.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:35 pm

Thank you, Steve, for sharing your understanding.

Now would you show how that understanding is consistent with Jesus calling the Father "the only true God"?

Or do you think you have shown that consistency? If so, would you please spell it out? Otherwise, I can only guess. Are you saying that Jesus once was "true God", but after He became born a human being, He was no longer "true God"?

Post by **_TK** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:17 pm

Paidion-

one quick point-- do you think the disciples were in Jesus' presence when he prayed this prayer? (i.e. do you think they heard him pray it?)

It might make a difference in the analysis.

TK

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:22 pm

One thing I have seen said, is that eternal life is predicated upon knowing both the One True God and Jesus Christ. Hence, Jesus Christ is on par with the One True God. Moreover, Jesus, being the mediator between God and man through the incarnation, is positionally under the One True God. This (John 17:3) is Christ humanity in focus.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:18 pm

Now would you show how that understanding is consistent with Jesus calling the Father "the only true God"?

Or do you think you have shown that consistency? If so, would you please spell it out? Otherwise, I can only guess. Are you saying that Jesus once was "true God", but after He became born a human being, He was no longer "true God"?

Yes, When Jesus emptied himself, his divine power returned back to the Father IMHO although the text does'nt explicitly state this, the fact that the Father returned Jesus's glory back to him at his resurrection implies this.
Also the Father is the source of the divine power of the "Spirit" and the "Word" thus He is the one true God, everything comes from Him.

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:32 pm

Paidion,

It must be recognized that Jesus utters the words "and this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3 NRSV) in a prayer, a prayer that his disciples were listening to. It could have been much like praying among a group of people worshipping God together, where Jesus is thinking of them as joint participants in the prayer.

Godet comments:

"While rendering homage to God, as the first source of eternal life, He has the consciousness of being Himself the sole intermediate agent through whom those who listen to Him can have access to this source; for it is in Him that God manifests and gives Himself. This possession of eternal life is identified in His view, for all that is called man, with the knowledge of Himself, Jesus, as well as with that of God."

Consider the following:

John 14:7-9 (New King James Version)

7. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8. Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9. Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Post by **_TK** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:41 pm

thanks homer- you addressed what I was getting at in my post regarding whether the disciples were listening to the prayer.

TK

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:21 pm

All these thoughts which have been posted may very well be true. But I can't see that any of them address the central question (except Steve 7150's comment which implied that as a human being, Jesus divested Himself of His divine attributes and thus was no longer "true God".

How about the rest of you? Was Jesus "true God" when He prayed this prayer, or wasn't He?

1. If the answer is "yes", then what did He mean by addressing His Father as "the only true God"?

2. If the answer is "no", then what was Jesus' divine status (if any) when He uttered the prayer?

Post by **_TK** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:24 am

I want to say something along the lines of "jesus was God in reality at the time of speaking, but his glory as God was veiled by his humanity" but i am not sure if that is really what I mean to say.

TK